Abundance 03: I Don’t Have Enough Wisdom—An Interview with Glenna Marshall Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Emily Jensen: Glenna, it is so fun to sit down and chat with you today. For those who are listening that don't know about you yet, would you just share a little bit about your different callings in life—the things that the Lord has put on your plate in this season? What are you up to?
Glenna Marshall: Well, I am a mom, so I'm really thankful to say that. I've got two kids, and I'm in a weird phase of parenting because I have a fifteen-year-old who I am teaching to drive, and I have an eight-year-old who will be in second grade this fall. I am in the big years and the little years, and it's weird, but it's a lot of fun. I really enjoy this phase of parenting. It's got a lot of challenges, but the older my kids get, the more they come into themselves. I really enjoy that.
I'm also married to my husband William for twenty years, and we live in rural Missouri where my husband serves as a pastor. We've been here for eighteen years where he pastors, and we love our church—love the calling that God has given us to serve in the local church in our community. We're so thankful to be here and thankful that the Lord has kept us here for such a long time. It's been really sweet to see the fruit of being in one place for a long time.
In my spare time when my kids are in school, I do a lot of writing. I've written a few books, and I do a lot of traveling and speaking at women's conferences and retreats and things like that. It keeps me fairly busy. One of my favorite things that I am blessed to be able to do is lead a very small Bible study in my home each week. It's the highlight of my week. It's a couple ladies from church, and we just dig through the Scriptures every Tuesday, and it might be my favorite thing on my calendar all week.
Emily: I love hearing about your family, and I know what you mean with local church ministry and how, even though there are things going on out there that we might be doing, there is just something so sweet about that in-person, one-on-one relationship that grows over time. I love that you're doing that, and it's so crazy to think that you have someone learning to drive.
Glenna: It's weird. The first time he got behind the wheel, my youngest was in the car with us, and he said, "I'm going to die. I don't want to do this." It's great. It's very surreal to have a child who is—well, he's a foot taller than me—and just to see him starting to do things independently from me is so strange but also really sweet. This is what you're raising your kids to do—to be independent and to leave the nest one day, as hard as that is to imagine.
Emily: Absolutely. To that end, knowing that you are preparing your kids for adulthood, and you're on this new cusp of parenting—I know, just even as you're talking, there have probably been tons of different points in motherhood where you felt like you didn't know what to do, right? Maybe because it was a new season, and you had never been in that season before. You'd never been a parent to a child that age before. Or perhaps because something was just really complex and was fraught with a lot of emotions, right? There's so many reasons why we can feel like we don't have enough wisdom in motherhood. I'm just curious—would you share with us maybe a time in motherhood—a circumstance where you felt you were lacking the wisdom that you needed to move forward?
Glenna: There are so many instances like that. It's hard to choose one. I don't know of any mom who thinks, "Gosh, I am full of wisdom as a mother." I think that we all feel like we're grappling for “What is the right decision for this child at this point in time?” I came to motherhood through adoption. And so I felt from the beginning I was nine months behind every other mom, and I read all of the books. Sixteen years ago, there weren't a lot, but I read them all.
Nothing prepared me for my children having health problems, and I have a child who is neurodivergent. I feel their lives are off script from the books that I read. Nothing really prepared me to know how to handle raising kids who think differently, whose brains work differently—children who need major operations. I have been to so many doctors’ appointments—I know this resonates with you, too—where you just sit, and you look at all the information on your children in black and white, and you're like, "Lord, I don't know what to do here. I'm not a doctor. I'm just a mom. I have no idea what to do."
My default response, unfortunately, is worry and anxiety. I feel I have spent so much of my time as a mom just wringing my hands, trying to figure out “What is the best thing? Am I going to screw up my kids? Are they going to resent me when they're adults? Am I doing this right?” And lying awake at night just wondering and worrying. Unfortunately, that has been my default response for a long time.
Specifically, about a year ago, we started going through some surgical appointments with my teenager who needed a major operation. I just remember coming home from those appointments feeling completely lost as a mom. If ever I needed wisdom to know what was best for my son and his future, that was the time. I really only had one place to go, and that was to the Lord. This is my child. This is the child God has entrusted me with, and that is a weighty thing. I am making decisions for my children that they will live with for the rest of their lives. That can crush you, or it can teach you to trust the Lord and his wisdom.
Emily: Like you alluded to, I understand a lot of that firsthand in some of the challenges we faced with one of our kiddos who has disabilities. I know that for me, even some of those medical decisions have brought more so to the forefront this sense of—the decision that my husband and I make in this situation is going to visibly, tangibly impact his life and his quality of life, potentially for the rest of his life or for a really long season of development.
What I think is so interesting is that that's probably true in spiritual areas or in other areas of our motherhood too, but it doesn't feel that way because it's not an appointment you put on the calendar or an incision that you can see or a medication bottle that you pick up. I think you're right that, as moms, we have to figure out what to do with the weight of that because if we carry that around—that sense of "Oh, no, this is all on me. If I don't make the right decision, I'm going to ruin my child's life." If we carry that around, that is absolutely crushing.
I'm just curious even to back up a little bit. If you could describe for us when you say, "Hey, I felt fearful; I feel anxiety"—what does that look like in your life? How does that come out in your mothering in terms of just practically—if we were a fly on the wall watching Glenna in that moment, what would we see?
Glenna: You would probably see me hiding in my room and crying. Typically, I go into this bathroom in our house that's really small, and I lock the door, and that is where I go to relieve all the emotions because I want to be strong for my kids, specifically even with my son with the health issues, and I know that he's watching how I will handle a stressful situation.
In private, there's a lot of tears, a lot of—I remember coming home from a surgery appointment with my husband and my son last summer, and my husband—I just took him straight into the bedroom, locked the door, burst into tears, and I said, "We have to pray about this every night until we know what to do." We did, and we just started praying every night that the Lord would give us wisdom.
I remember saying to my son on one of those trips to the doctor after we got the news that he was going to have to have a very major operation. It ended up being a nine-hour surgery, months of recovery—very dangerous surgery on his spine. I remember he was scared, and I turned around the car, and I said to him, "You know what we're going to do? We know that the Lord loves you, and we're going to trust him with your life because he loves you more than anyone else. What we're going to do to remember that we can trust him is we're going to look for the ways that he loves you throughout these next few months, and we're just going to keep track." We did. We kept receipts of all the ways that God was caring for my son specifically.
When it came to operation day, those were the things that we recounted: that God is faithful, that he loves us, that he is with us, and that we can trust him with our lives. It was so strange because having to teach my son to go to the Lord for wisdom—having to teach my son to trust God with his life—is what taught me to do that. In a lot of ways, we think we're modeling things for our kids, but the Lord is teaching us at the same time to live by example—not just for our kids' sake but for our own sanctification.
If this is really what you believe, and this is what you want your child to believe, you're going to have to believe it because kids can see through that so easily. They can call your bluff. For me, I still struggled with some fear and some anxiety during that really hard season. At the same time, I had to show my son that God was faithful. And so I had to believe that God was faithful.
I love the pattern in Scripture of having to go back and always recount the Lord's past faithfulness. That process will carry you through your trials or your unknowns or your doubts when you're parenting. You look at how God has been faithful to you in the past, and you trust that he will give you what you need for the present and the future.
Emily: I think so often, we think, “If I just knew for sure, for sure, for sure this is what God wants, without a shadow of a doubt, I would be good. I would trust him. Everything would be okay, if he could just give me some type of clear sign that we were headed in the right direction.” Yet, I always think back to the gospels and how—what more clarity could the disciples have had but Jesus in the flesh with them, telling them parables? This is God's Word to you literally right here, and yet, they still doubted. They still struggled. They still didn't fully understand.
I love what you're saying, which is—when it came to needing wisdom for something, it was a lot more about—how are the Marshalls going to walk with faith in this? How are you and your son and your family going to trust the Lord and look for his goodness—believe that he is leading you? It's not up to you to figure out, decode, or do this super mysterious hunt for the right answer as much as it is for you guys to pray and to trust and to rejoice and do all of those things in the midst of that.
I love that picture of your family doing that together because—at least I know when we've gone through times of struggle where we're really not sure what to do, I've had to go, “I'm going to lean on the Lord both until there is clarity, and if there's not clarity. I'm still trusting that he's with us in the midst of this, and he's doing a good thing.” I just love how your family walked through that, and I'm sure, like you said, it's not perfect or anything, and it's not glamorous while it's happening, and yet that's what the Lord is asking us to do.
Glenna: I think sometimes when we say, "I want the Lord to give me wisdom for this specific situation," we're wanting to be able to tell the future. We want him to just reveal what is exactly going to happen, but that, number one, is not living by faith. That's living by sight, and we are living by faith from now until we see Jesus face to face.
Number two, if you could know the absolute outcome, then you wouldn't have to trust the Lord at all. Going to God for wisdom, I have learned, just means living your life closely to Scripture—closely to the Lord in prayer—and surrounding yourself with other people who are doing that in the local church so that your life is infused with Scripture—infused with biblical, wise, godly counsel. And you may not know exactly what the next step should be, but you do the things—you live your life closely to the Word, you pray about it, and then you make the decision and trust God with the result.
I really think that's where wisdom is. It's not second guessing every decision that you make, but doing what you can with the information that you do have and trusting God with your life as you walk closely and align yourself with Scripture. I think that's what wisdom is.
Emily: In other words, fear the Lord.
Glenna: Exactly. Yes, exactly.
Emily: That is the beginning of wisdom because—sometimes, we all want these assurances: if God will show me exactly what it is and if I will follow that, then everything will be okay. It will all turn out a certain way. That's also not something that we get in the Christian life—an assurance that if we follow a certain thing, then no pain, suffering, hurt will ever happen again. We get that eventually, right, in consummation when Christ returns for believers, but in this life, that's not the goal. That's not what we're going to have.
Just shifting gears a little bit, because I know something you've been pouring a lot of time into lately is the whole concept of Scripture memory. As you're noting, one of the ways that we fear the Lord and walk with the Lord when we need wisdom is to be immersed in Scripture and to be praying Scripture and to be around other believers who know the Word intimately and deeply. Can you tell us a little bit more about Scripture memory and how it can aid us in this process of needing to know what to do as a mom?
Glenna: I think Scripture memorization, for me, has really been the bridge between my Bible study that I do every day and then the rest of my day, because it's easy to read in the mornings—which is when I read and study and pray—and then close your Bible and get on with your day. And maybe you don't think about what you've read anymore for the rest of the day, but the rest of the day is when you're going to be having all of these moments where you're going to need wisdom from the Lord, and you're going to need discernment. I have found that the practice of Scripture memorization keeps my mind really anchored to Christ throughout the day.
I have certain touchpoints through the day where I work on passages, and so, returning to the Word throughout the day keeps me close to the Lord. It keeps me ever rehearsing the truths of Scripture—and where are we going to go for wisdom apart from Scripture? That's God's chosen means of revelation of himself. Everything that he wants us to know to know how to live as Christians in this life, we have in Scripture. We're not going to be able to be wise apart from God or apart from this means of grace that he's given us. I need a Scripture-shaped life, and I have found that memorizing Scripture does shape my life in the way that I want it to be shaped, because God's Word is not like any other book that we read.
This is God's living and active Word. It is all true without error—inspired by God. It's all useful for correction and teaching and rebuke and training in righteousness. It renews your mind. As we're told in Romans, God uses his Word to change the way that you think. When you change the way that you think, then you affect the way that you act, the way that you make decisions, the way that you react, the way that you speak. I mean—everything that is in here and in your head and your heart is going to come out in your mouth and your actions.
When you have saturated your heart and your mind with Scripture, then Scripture comes out. And not just quoting Scripture but thinking like God through Scripture, which is the goal, I think, of memorization: to think of God and to think like him. The more we give ourselves Scriptural truths to meditate on, the more benefit we see. You'll see it come out in your parenting. You'll see it come out in your marriage or your friendships—in your relationships with those who are believers and those who are not.
I think that the Holy Spirit is just so good at bringing Scripture to mind also when you need it in the moment—in those moments where you don't know what to do. If you have been storing Scripture in your heart, he's so faithful to help you recall it so that you can remember you do have the wisdom of God through Scripture. He's given it to you, and you're storing it in your heart, and it is shaping the way that you think and the way that you act, transforming you to be more and more like Jesus. That's what we want as moms and as Christians in general.
Emily: Absolutely. I'm so challenged and encouraged whenever I'm following you on Instagram, and you've got Scripture in a Ziploc bag in your shower—wherever—all over your house. You do just realize how, over time, that does make such a difference. I think, in the past, whenever I've gone through periods of time I've memorized in Scripture, while I'm doing it, I basically just feel like, "Wow, I'm really bad at this. I have no memory, and what is this doing?" [Laughter] I guess—to give a different example in more of an academic setting—because this is the way that teachers teach things too.
I can remember being in college, and when I was getting my special education degree, one of the things I had to do in one of my first classes was memorize the actual medical definitions of all of these common different disabilities and disorders that people had. That was one of the first tests I had to take—be able to write down “What is autism? What are these things, word for word?”
At first, again, it felt super clunky, and “I'm never going to get this” and whatever, but you realize that you needed that down in your memory if you were going to make it through the rest of your classes and have any ability to function in a real-life setting where you could spot a kiddo with something and then know how to respond and know how to meet that need with a teaching strategy.
Later on, I started to realize how valuable it had been that I knew all of that right off the top of my head, and I didn't have to think about it. I think in motherhood, whenever we're in a tough situation—again, that moment when we were memorizing Scripture might have felt kind of like "Ah, this feels clunky. I don't know; is this really doing anything?" It's amazing when you are in a tough season or you're going through suffering or your kiddo needs a word of wisdom shared with them that the Lord can just bring up stuff, and it can feel a lot more natural and instinctive versus— yes, you can go back to the Word and look things up again. Absolutely. But it's so helpful to have that already stored in your heart when you need it.
Glenna: Yes, because storing it in your heart is a little different than just reading it— opening your Bible and reading it. If you have been storing it in your heart, you have been thinking about it as you rehearse those words, and it feels like work because it is work, but you're doing it over and over. The Lord is preaching you a sermon in every phrase, and it is working its way into your heart. It's more than even just having a Rolodex of information in your mind; it is, like you said—it's giving you a foundation to work from.
I'll never forget, a couple of summers ago, one of my kids had a major meltdown at church; it was very public in front of everyone. I, as the mother—my pride was really stung. I was humiliated. I had been memorizing Colossians 4 at the time, and I had been listening to Colossians 4 on my Bible app on the way to church that morning. I take this crying child out to the car to take him home, and immediately, what kicks on in my van is Colossians 4, and it's "Fathers, do not provoke your children"—or some translations say, “Exasperate your children so that they won't become discouraged.”
I just remember sitting in my car with a kid crying in the backseat, and I'm crying in the front seat and hearing God's Word wash over me. “Glenna, you don't need to respond in anger here. Do not provoke your child. You don't want him to be discouraged towards obedience; you want to encourage him." I just remember, because I was angry, feeling so corrected by God's Word and a passage that I was working on memorizing just meeting me right there. Really, that moment changed the way I have parented since then. Very small thing—one verse of Scripture from Colossians 4 has absolutely just flipped the switch with my parenting. It's just amazing how God's Word can meet you in a moment like that.
Emily: I love it when God's Word sets me straight. That feels so good; it hurts and it feels so good at the same.
Glenna: It does.
Emily: The name of this series is actually Abundance because one of the things we want to do as we're talking about motherhood and the ways that we feel like we don't have enough, we're lacking, and we're feeling weak is to turn our eyes to the Lord and see how abundant he is in the areas where we are lacking, and that is by design. What is your favorite thing about the abundance of God's wisdom?
Glenna: It is abundant, like you say. It's an inexhaustible resource, so we can ask God for wisdom daily. He's never going to run out. He is the source of wisdom. I think of the doxology in Romans 11, where Paul says, "Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God, and how unsearchable are his judgments, how unknowable are his ways. Who can bring counsel to God? Who can give to him that he must repay?" That's my paraphrase. Basically, God's wisdom—it's an untapped resource almost—like we can't get to the bottom of it, and we can't even understand it.
What I also love—I think of James 1, where James tells us, "If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask God who gives generously without reproach." The other thing I love about that is that God is not stingy with his wisdom. He gives it generously, and he doesn't belittle you for asking for it. I love that. The invitation for us as believers is to come to the Lord for wisdom. He is wisdom. He is the source of it. He's never going to run out. He's not like, "Emily, you've asked a few too many times this week for wisdom—you've reached your limit." It's not that. It's—every day, ask the Lord for wisdom.
The caveat that we have in James 1 is: "But ask in faith, not doubting, because if you doubt, you're like a wave of the sea that's tossed back and forth, and that man shouldn't expect to receive anything. He's double-minded, unstable in all his ways." I really feel that, because I want to ask the Lord for wisdom, but I also want to try to mold the future the best I can, which is silly, because I have no control. Control is always an illusion. God is sovereign, he is in control, and I can trust him. I can trust his wisdom. When I read a passage like that, I'm so encouraged because God has a deep well of wisdom that never runs out. He's not stingy with it. He gives it generously because he loves us, and he wants us to walk in his wisdom.
But he also wants us to trust him with the fallout—not to ask him for wisdom and then second guess everything. I think it's: ask him for wisdom. Live your life closely to Scripture. Seek godly counsel from Christians who are also walking closely with God, but then trust him with what happens next. I think that's a big part of going to God for wisdom—not second guessing the path that he has made clear to you. Even if the path isn't super clear, if you're walking in alignment with Scripture, you can trust him with that. He's absolutely faithful.
Emily: I love that. I love that you quoted some Scripture for us in the midst of that. It just shows the power of having some of those words on hand. I think—I'll speak for my own motherhood in this, but I am just so quick sometimes, when I don't know what to do in a situation, to Google things because I think—abundance of wisdom . . . online, right? Anything you could want to know in the whole world . . . online. When we're struggling with a decision, or you are wanting to research something, or you're wanting to hear other perspectives, I think that is, a lot of times, my gut go-to thing.
Certainly, everyone listening has benefited from something that they've read or seen online. I'm so thankful that when it comes to learning about my son's disability or whatever, that I don't have to somehow go to a library, check out a book, bring these volumes home, and have to comb through it. I'm thankful that, with a couple of words, I can click through and just gain a lot of information. It's such a gift, but at the same time, I like what you're saying—for as vast as the internet is, it is totally incomparable to the abundance and inexhaustible wisdom of God.
I think the other thing I have to go back to is: "Hey, just because I found something on Google doesn't mean it's wise." It doesn't mean that it's wise in the way that God's wisdom is wise. I have to just remind myself of that practically, whenever I'm thinking about, “Where do I go for abundant wisdom?” Sure, do my research, look up the things, but I want my heart to be oriented, just like you were saying—fully looking to the Lord for how he is going to guide. That might include some things that I find on Google; it might not. It might be some wisdom from friends. It might be just a way that he's leading us in prayer, but I love that reminder.
Glenna: I am no stranger to Dr. Google. I will do my research on everything, but there comes a point where, if searching and researching stirs up fear in your heart, that's when you know you need to stop because that, I think, is being that man in James 1 that is being tossed about by every wave. I think that you know yourself. There are certain things in my life that I am not allowed to Google because I am prone to fear in those areas, and some of them very much are parenting issues. I think, like you said, you can do your research, and I think we should—that's a gift to have those things at our fingertips. But if it leads you in a direction that is away from feeling certain of the Lord's care for you, that's when you stop.
Emily: Oh, such a good word right there. As we close out the interview, I know that there are moms listening who are feeling like they're lacking wisdom in a certain area of their life or their motherhood. What would you say to that mom?
Glenna: I would say, number one: live your life closely to Scripture. You're never going to be wise apart from God; it's pride to think that. Take everything to the Lord in prayer. He cares about every little, tiny thing in your life. If you've got an infant who is not sleeping, you take that to the Lord. If you've got a teenager who is driving, you take that to the Lord. If you've got a grown child who is getting married or making a big life decision, you take that to the Lord. Every single thing matters to him.
I also just would encourage—I am very blessed to have an actual mother who is possibly the most Bible-literate person I know and lives her life so closely to God's Word. She is my mom and my spiritual mom that I go to. If you don't have that, please look to the local church. Look to a woman who is ahead of you in life, who loves the Lord and lives her life closely to Scripture. She will be a wonderful resource of lived biblical wisdom. I think sometimes we just feel like, "I need to figure this out myself. These are my kids. I should know them. I should know how to do this."
There's no reason to think that you should know everything. You're not God. Take advantage of those who have already lived through the season that you're in and ask questions and sit and learn. I think if I could redo some of my years as a young mom, that's something I would do.
Emily: That is such an encouraging word, Glenna. I love that reminder that it's okay to not know.
Glenna: It is.
Emily: It's great to take steps forward to look to those who do have wisdom because of their years of experience and most importantly to the Lord. Thank you so much for being with us, Glenna, and just sharing your love for Scripture. That's so, so encouraging.
Glenna: Thanks for having me. I love to talk about it.
