Moms + Work 02: Oops, I Fell Into a Ditch! Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Laura Wifler: Okay, Em, so it's no secret that you and I are opposites in everything.
Emily Jensen: We do seem to have different personalities, different tendencies. And even as we have been talking about this concept of work, it's funny because we almost always come from the opposite perspective. I'm like, "I'm judging it this way." And you're like, "I'm thinking of it that way." Even though we land obviously very similarly in our theology, the direction from which we're coming to the topic seems to be totally different.
Laura: I know. It's always so interesting to me, but we both had different upbringings, which I think plays into that. Your mom worked and my mom worked, but yet we saw things differently. As we were raised, we had different personalities at play in our own lives. I think I'm definitely more of a go-getter, high achiever, don't-stop-till-you're-dead type of person and you love fun, fun, and more fun.
Emily: I love fun. I always wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. I dreamed of baking cookies for my kids and doing all the things like volunteering at school. I think our personalities, our upbringings—even our story of salvation and just our walk of faith and the way that even Christian culture impacted you and impacted me differently. We come with these different perceptions and different messages and different aims.
We've noticed, as we've talked through this topic over the years, how much that plays into the decisions that we make, the errors that we fall into; it's just really all intertwined.
Laura: Today we want to take a show to really talk about the errors that we do have in our work, because it often feels like work is one of these spots where our sin issues are often pretty highlighted, and I don't even know why that is. It's just the fall, right, but it feels like a lot of times, when I'm thinking through some of the things I struggle with, I can often look to my work and—whether that's my job here at Risen Motherhood, my role as an author, or my role as a mother—when I am doing things and working is when a lot of that stuff comes out, not when I'm resting as much.
There's an idol because I don't rest. That's a whole thing.
Emily: The other part of that is that—I think at least this is true for me—I can fall into a lot of different types of errors. All within the same day.
Laura: Absolutely.
Emily: Or maybe the same hour, and so it's not like I just have this one tendency. It's like—oh man. It's all there. I like what you said about work—just as a reminder to listeners, we are using this word in a really broad way. We're not just talking about the moments that you're doing income producing work or you're off to your volunteer gig, but we are talking about the errors that we fall into when it is time to make the bed again, or it is time to do the dishes again, or it’s time to fill the fridge again, and we're just like, "Uh, I just did that yesterday." It's like, what are we potentially idolizing? What error are we falling into in those situations as well?
Laura: The first one is my biggest struggle probably: that ideal of achievement or feeling of accomplishment. That's really, for me, a feeling of checking things off my list. I love the feeling. I'm sure there are women that are going to resonate with me right now when I say writing down—writing a to-do list and then crossing that off after you've written your to-do list just feels so good. There's just—
Emily: My husband does that. Must have been something that was taught to you guys.
Laura: I do come from a family that really values high productivity, so yes, probably, but this is that mentality that we can fall into of "tasks over people." We avoid rest, burn the candle at both ends—whatever expression you want to use—and I think sometimes there can be—this is so hard to talk about because it's admitting all of my sins, but there's the judgment on others thinking, "Oh, they're not as productive as I am" or "They should be able to do more." Or maybe it's just being proud of the capacity that we have, and I think really trying to do it all and not ask for help and not accepting help.
I think, over the years, what's been so encouraging for me is something that we talked about on the last show, which is what ultimately makes me good? What is ultimately—where is my salvation found? What ultimately gives me identity and success and value? That's Christ, and I think that, for me, that has been learning to have an adjustment between what is eternal and what is temporary and recognizing how I can invest in what is eternal, which is people.
Tasks can help us do that, but they're not the ultimate thing. Ephesians 2:8-10 talks about "For by grace you have been saved through faith. It's not of your own doing; it's the gift of God, not the result of works, so that no one may boast." That is a really good encouragement for myself and my heart, I know. A lot of recognizing that the works that I do at the end of the day are fruitless unless they're done in service to God and that ultimately those aren't going to earn me any status before the throne.
Emily: I think the classic example of that is the Mary and Martha story. Martha was really focused the tasks and the serving and getting stuff done, which was so important. People need to eat, stuff needs to get done around here, and I think that, in general, that's a good, important thing. That work is good, but then Jesus is pointing to Mary and her attitude to come sit at his feet—that knowing what was most important in that moment (which was Christ) was what he was really emphasizing.
Again, it's not to pit quiet time against our working time, but just to say: there's an order of our loves. There's an order of our hearts and there's a sitting at the Lord's feet, to even prepare ourselves for our service. That's good. Another thing we might idolize is being able to decide what we are going to do with our days and our time. It's just an idol of control and feeling like "I have plans. I know what I want things to look like and I'm not going to accept deviation from that."
I think this can be neglecting our God-given responsibility, so that we can do what we want versus what needs to get done. I know that's something I struggle with sometimes. Even my husband will be like, "You save that thing that you want to do for after you get that task done." Because I want to do the reward right away and say, "Oh, I'll get to the work later." I've really learned I cannot do that. I need to reverse that order.
Or just not being content to acknowledge God's timing—sometimes we're in a season where we can't take on quite as much as we thought we could or as we wanted to, or we've got to say no to a project or no to a traveling thing. The idol would tempt you towards saying "No, getting to do what you want is the most important thing. Seeing that dream realized is the most important thing."
Laura: That's a very real cultural message right now too, I think, where it's "Hey, life can be whatever you want it to be and you can do anything you want and the only limitation is your own determination and your own abilities to conjure something up." I think that is a very real message right now. It feels like "Hey, if I just get the right combination of a nanny and the home meals delivered to my door, and then I also get my house cleaning outsourced and whatever it is, then I can do the dreams that I want to do."
Sometimes, like—for many people that's not even—none of those are options. That's a huge amount of privilege if we think that way. But then also just that idea that ultimately our joy is not found here on this earth; it is found in heaven. We can wait patiently here, recognizing, "Hey, what are my unique circumstances? What are my days fit with? What has God given me as my responsibilities?" And not feel like, "Oh, man. If I don't get my dream now, if I don't muscle that up, then I haven't done a good enough job or I haven't performed. I've done something wrong." That's what it can feel like.
Emily: Yes, we live in such an autonomous culture, thinking, "Yeah, we can just create whatever we want." Obviously, there's so many verses throughout Bible that talk about God's plans being established, and one I like—Proverbs 19:21—is: "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand." I think it acknowledges that we should make plans—we do make plans, we do hope for things, we do want things—but are we allowing God to have the authority over that? To recognize God's sovereignty and the things that he's given us in our lives and saying, "No. What the Lord wills for my life will stand and I will obey that and submit to that joyfully, knowing that what he has for me is good, and it is even better than the plan that I concocted for myself."
Laura: Okay, another one is just the idea of comfort, ease, recreation.
Emily: You're speaking my language, Laura. [Laughter]
Laura: Maybe you talk about this one then.
Emily: Oh, I can tell you all about this one. Laura tends towards achievement. I don't love the list. I would love to never make a list. This is a true thing. I write my list on scrap pieces of paper so I can throw them away at the end of the day. Get them out of my life! I think it can just be this idolization of the fun stuff—the reward, the ease, the comfort—and not wanting to make some of the sacrifices and lay down our rights and see work as purposeful and service-oriented. I think, too, there can be a sense of idolizing the value of life in the experience of it. I don't even know if that makes sense but viewing that as the ultimate thing and viewing work as an obstacle to that and not wanting to do that part of it.
A verse that has really helped me over the years—and it was actually the most transformative verse God used to help change my heart in this—is Proverbs 13:4: "The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied." The thing I like about that is that it acknowledges that there is a craving in all of us. There is a craving to enjoy life, to experience the goodness of God, to experience the rewards and the fun aspects of things. A sluggard craves that, but they don't get any of that because they're a sluggard, and they're idle, and they're not putting their hands to the purposeful work. But the real reward—the soul is richly supplied by diligent work.
God actually brings great joy through hard work, and I realize that sometimes it feels like, "Oh, the thing I'm going to enjoy the most is to rest today," but when I work really hard, it's amazing. I often feel better after I worked really hard all day.
Laura: Oh yes.
Emily: It's counterintuitive to me and I've had to learn that hard work can be rewarding in and of itself.
Laura: Yes, there is something to a sense of accomplishment that I do think is God-given. A job well done—we can rest in that.
Another one is this idol of immediate riches or rewards, and I know that I've fallen into this before—I'm sure everybody has—where we just feel like, "Hey, I want part-time work for full-time pay." Everything you see right now on Instagram and all these places—it just feels like, "Hey, I have a way for you to be able to be a full-time, stay-at-home mom, but you're going to make six figures". There's just a way. "If you want to come over here and work for me, it's going to happen."
Emily: You can go viral, you can buy followers, you can hack your way—shortcuts to everything—and I think, inadvertently, we can say, "Oh, there are also shortcuts to God's principles." We become willing to go around God's ways and say like, "Oh, the ends justify the means." As long as I get to an end that I'm happy with and blesses my family and seems like it's okay with God, then it doesn't really matter how I get there. I'll take the shortcut, or I'll take the way that's maybe not as faithful.
Okay, I know an example of this. You know in Pilgrim's Progress—
Laura: I know which part you're saying.
Emily: Christian is walking, and then there are some guys that jump over the wall instead of going through the gate, and it's this idea that they're like, "Why would I go through the gate? I can just jump over the wall right here." Of course, that's not the valid way to be on the path towards the Celestial City. I think sometimes we can have that type of attitude of like, "Oh, I'm just going to jump over God's principles and get in this the easy way." Whatever we perceive as the easy way. Whereas like, "No, God has a right way."
Laura: Well—and I know that I do this—I mean, I'm just starting to think of some motherhood examples, and I totally do this with my kids where I'm couch parenting and yelling around and saying, "Oh, I don't really want to discipline you, but I want you to stop doing that."
Emily: I want you to be perfect, but I don't want to have to put any work into motherhood.
Laura: Exactly. Or even with my husband—sometimes I'm like, "Okay, what's the shortcut here to just resolve this issue and move on because I don't want to really deal with it?" I think, with a lot of things, we're saying, "Hey, how can I get this hack or microwave version of what I want? I'm going to get my rewards now and I'll work later if I have to." There is a lot in God's Word that talks about this. Ecclesiastes 5:10: "He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves wealth with his income; This also is vanity."
This is just saying, as you are pursuing money—at the end of the day, the pursuit of that is not what's going to satisfy you. It's all vanity. Hard work—what we were talking about—the sense of accomplishment that we actually have—that is going to be a far better reward than going around things and trying to skip steps.
Emily: If we believe that God sees our work and ultimately all of our work is done unto the Lord, then why would we cut corners?
Laura: Right. And haven't you always seen where, when people cut corners, it always comes crashing down? It never works, and it might be five years, ten years, but it just feels like at some point along the way, whenever you're skipping things and cutting corners and saying, "Hey, I'm just going to do this like hack job to get where I want to be"—at the end of the day, that quality—you're missing that, and so it's going to fail or fall or falter at some point, even if I think there sometimes are immediate rewards to those things. I don't want to deny that.
Emily: Yes. Another thing that we can idolize, especially as moms, is our kids. We can inadvertently make the work that we do in our motherhood for our children the most important thing. What that can do is make them so big and so important that maybe we neglect other things. For instance, maybe another way that this plays out is that we don't want to make them sacrifice or be inconvenienced or go without our attention in any way.
I think that this can be as—to get granular, this can be as simple as, "I don't want to pick up the house and clean because I'm not going to be playing with my kids, or they're not going to like that I'm cleaning, and I'm not paying attention to them." Over the years, I've had people send in a lot of questions to Risen Motherhood, and a question is always like, "How do I get work done around the house with children at home? How do I load the dishwasher with a toddler there? When am I supposed to be getting the work done?"
I think the answer is: right there, when they're there. You teach them how to get engaged, and you say, "Mommy's going do this right now because we have to do this to get the work done in the family. And you can help, or you can go play with that toy over there, but mommy's going to get this done." I think that is hard for us, and I think that our culture would say that a good mom doesn't deter her attention even for a moment. Then we have all of this housework piling up and it's like, "No, actually we need to engage our kids with that."
Laura: Yes, I think it was for me eye-opening—this was actually over the summer. I was feeling like I tend to do a lot of the work for my kids because I'm more efficient, I'm faster. This is Laura's productivity coming out where I'm just like, "I'll take care of it." And realizing, "No, I need to bring my kids along with me." I was even asking moms like, "Okay, what chores do you have for kids and how do you distribute those each day?" I didn't want anything complicated. I can't even manage a sticker chart. I just needed some sort of rhythm.
Anyway, it was one of those things where I realized I was doing all the work for my kids, and I was actually doing a disservice in their training and their upbringing as people who would hopefully, someday, like we talked about, contribute to society. It was something where I'm like, "Hey, I'm called by God to train up my kids in the way that they should go and doing everything for them is not training."
I was really convicted by that. Even if the work of the home is getting done—even if it's getting done well, actually—I need to bring my kids in. Or now that they've gone off to school, I’ve felt like, "Oh, I really need to do everything for them so when they come home, we can just be together." I think there's some merit in that. I think every mom has to juggle some of those different things, but there's still an element where I'm like, "Saturday morning, we're doing power hour because you are going to learn to clean a toilet." That is just part of life.
Emily: Yes. I think another aspect of this in idolizing our kids can be being so focused on our own household and our own little sphere—which is so good and so important—but we can make a good thing an ultimate thing, and we can neglect caring for the community. We can neglect caring for our church. We can neglect thinking about what our neighbors might need, what our friends might need, and ways that we might sacrifice as a family in order to help them.
I think that's something I've been convicted of over the years, because even something as simple as bringing a meal to a new mom—well, that requires you to figure out how you're going to get extra groceries.
Laura: Takes half a day to bring a meal to somebody.
Emily: Its half a day, and then you going to load everybody up in the car and go, and I think there can be this tendency to feel like, "Well, we just want to stay on our own track. Getting my own stuff done is hard enough. I don't want to sacrifice to help somebody else." But we can't idolize our own sphere running well. We have to also look outward and serve and figure out ways to bring our children along with that.
Laura: Almost on the opposite side of that, Emily, where you were saying, "Hey, we just want to be on our own path and do our own thing." I know, for me, I've fallen into the other ditch of that: we're idolizing our motherhood and thinking that mommy martyrdom is best. A hard life equals goodness. If my kids miss their nap, that's making them more resilient or if my kids—they need to learn to come along with me and be involved in everything, and I'll sacrifice them so that I can be productive.
That's where I think this idea that I'm unwilling to bend for the needs of my family— to recognize I need to be a mom to them first, not just serving everybody else and doing it in the name of motherhood. Waving the flag of motherhood that this is training, this is bringing my kids alongside me, but recognizing that like, "No, you do not have to do everything." A harder life—there’s nowhere in the Bible that says pray for a harder life.
That was something I had to learn. I really thought suffering meant that more holiness would come. I think that that's a true equation, but God's Word doesn't say, "Hey, you should ask for suffering." Because God can make you holy however he wants to make you holy. He doesn't have to use suffering. He will use lots of different things in your life. In this instance, I needed to just recognize that, "Hey, only God is God, and I am limited. I do have a choice of what to say yes and no to. I have options here and I need to use wisdom and I need to sleep. God doesn't." All those kinds of things that compare and contradict and just realizing my place in the order of the world was really important for me.
Emily: Hopefully, as people are listening too, they're hearing our differences that we talked about at the beginning. Depending on the things that each of us struggle with—again, our personalities, the ways that we're wired and bent—we may need different correctives.
You heard me saying, "Hey, I tend to focus so much on keeping our little bubble so safe and consistent and nice and—bedtimes and all of that," that I have to be pushed to sacrifice and to look outward and to say, "No, I do need to engage in my community. I do need to serve. I do need to be willing to let my kids feel a little uncomfortable." Or to say, "No, we are going to come along." Or "I am going to be away for a couple of hours to go record a podcast, and it's going to be fine."
I was just having that conversation with my daughter this morning: "You're going to go be with Grammy, and she's going to take you to school today." And my daughter being like, "No." I know in the grand scheme of everything, she's fine. It is okay and I have to be pushed a little bit more that way. What I hear you saying is kind of the opposite of—your default would be to go and serve and do and "My kids are going to be fine and so I—"
Laura: It's so heartless. I'm such a monster! [Laughter]
Emily: No. It is all ugly. All the sins are ugly.
Laura: Yes, it's ugly now that we're spewing it on the podcast for all of you to hear.
Emily: There you guys go, but whatever it is, I hope that instead of being like, "Well, oh, Laura, Emily, you're so bad," you are thinking, "I struggle with things too." The heart of this show is just to say: think about the ways that you're struggling in your work right now and you're maybe prioritizing wrong things. What does it look like to believe the truth, to repent, to turn back to the Lord, and to walk in his ways? Ultimately, that is what is going to bring us the most joy, the most peace, the most fruitfulness in our work—to do it the way God commands.
Laura: Just a little nugget to say: you have the Holy Spirit in you. If you're in Christ, you have the Holy Spirit working in you, and that is one of the most encouraging things to me over the years—to know that this is not done on my own power. I'm not pulling my bootstraps—because I'm a pull-up-the-bootstraps kind of girl—but I'm not doing that. I am trusting in God to change me. He did a saving miracle of my soul from a long time ago, and he can help me today and do another miracle and help me to put work in its right order and to fight this sin. So take hope and all of that, and, like Emily said, we hope this encourages you just to think about right orders of your work, and that's it.
