Moms + Work 07: Let’s Stop Being So Mean Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Laura Wifler: Okay. Now that we've talked about all types of work, and we've run the gamut it feels like, I think one of the bigger questions is—even thinking about mom culture at large and just as we want to be Christian moms—how do we foster a spirit of unity across the different ways that we do the types of work that we do? Income-producing or not—whatever it is—it just seems like it's one of those things that it constantly causes division among moms.
Even for you and I, we've felt the tug and pull with one another where I tend to be somebody who works a lot and feels like, "Hey, everybody can handle a little bit more than they have," and you're on the other side of saying, "No, we don't need as much. Scale back and let's do less." Even between you and I—I don't know that's ever become a big deal, but it's something that I would say we all experience in our relationships with other moms—some sort of dissonance on this topic.
Emily Jensen: Absolutely. I even think, if you look across your church body or your neighborhood or your friend group, likely there is some variation in the way that moms are spending their days and the different types of work that they're doing. I think because work is such a visible thing, it's something that we can instantly look at and make a judgment on. Maybe you can't tell what kind of attitude somebody has or you're not in their home actually observing them, but it's just this easy way that we feel like, "Oh, I'm going to just size them up." I also have noticed within my own heart—and I think this is true of women in general—is we like for there to be a consensus on things.
Laura: Yes, we’re so relational.
Emily: Yes. We want everybody to do the same thing, and when everybody's doing the same thing, we feel like it's right. We don't really like it when somebody's an outlier, or they're making a different decision, or we don't like to be the outlier. I even think that there is that tension—within friend groups, within church bodies—of moms that are doing different things for work and motherhood and different balance. It can feel like, "Oh, if I'm not doing what the majority is doing, then I'm on the outs or people are judging me." Or maybe we are judging the mom who is doing something different. So, it can be a real relational issue in motherhood.
Laura: Yes. I think another thing that's interesting is that you often end up spending a lot of time with a mom who does similar things as you just because of schedules. Like pure practical—I know when I didn't have any outside work commitments that were income-producing, I spent a lot of time with other stay-at-home moms and that was my bubble because we had time to spend together during the day.
Then, now that I work a lot more, I find that it sometimes feels just easier to connect with somebody else who also carries a part-time job where they're juggling both things. Part of it is our schedules are open near the same amount of times, or we have just more chemistry in the way that we understand one another. I think the other thing that happens is we start to silo. I think the church does a great job, where we're all put into the big bucket, but if you're not really working very hard, you'll start ending up being like, "Oh, I'm going to stay over here with all the moms that do it the same way as I do," and you're not getting that exposure to the other side to see how it might work in somebody else's life to do it differently.
Emily: Right. We want to just have this conversation today because, like Laura said, we know it's been something we've felt in our own hearts. We've, of course, observed this in culture at large, but as Christian moms, we know that we need to be approaching this differently. We need to be pursuing unity in our church body, we need to be seeking to build each other up and helping and encouraging each other in the role of motherhood, in the biblical calling that God has given us, and then also encouraging each other in all the different types of work that God has given us to do and to be cheering one another on and pointing each other towards Christ and taking that long view. How does that look practically? What does that actually look like in our lives on a day-to-day basis?
Laura: Yes. I feel like my first tip will just be a little bit of what I was already sharing, but if you're feeling judgmental about a mom in your community, get to know her. I just think there's sometimes—for me personally, I know that often I'm the type of person who can see improvement everywhere. I can see little ways that we could do this a little better or that a little better, and it's something that I have to keep in check, where I can say, "Just enjoy. Just be, Laura."
With that, I have learned, though, so much that, often when I see something that could be different—whether that's a church thing that's going on or a friend's life where I'm like, "Oh, if they just turn to these knobs, it'd be fine"—I feel like if I come in with questions and with a heart posture to learn, then I realize, "Oh, they actually have really good thoughts behind that," or "They actually have tried these things that I thought we should try, but they've already done those things and it hasn't worked for these really good reasons."
I think that's something where we can often, again, get in these little silos or stretch out our arm to this mom who's doing something different and say like, "I don't understand her and I don't need to understand her because I know," but you don't know.
Emily: I have been humbled so many times by this principle of getting to know somebody who's maybe making a little bit of a different choice. Then, as I've spent time around her and I've spent time around her kids and I've watched her do motherhood, I'm like, "Whoa, she is so intentional. She's so loving. She's really emulating Christ to her children. I didn't realize she served in this certain way." In the end, I learned from her, and I went, "Oh, it was easy for me, right off the bat, to just be like 'oh, she blah, blah, blah,’ then she must not care about her kids that much." Then, as I got to know her, go, "Actually, she cares about her kids a lot and she's doing some things that I wish I could do."
Of course, that's not every single time we find out that somebody is an amazing mom, but I do think in the context of godly communities of moms who are making different choices, oftentimes we need to get a little bit closer to the situation to see some of the ways that she's thriving and that she's doing motherhood well. We can actually learn from her in that.
Laura: Believe the best with other people. There's no reason we should start out saying, "I'm just going to believe the worst of you." Start with a position that says, "I want to believe the best in these other moms who are pursuing Christ and doing life differently." Then also that idea that—just remembering, too—you are only called to be faithful in your life. There have been so many times where I've looked at somebody else's life and just thought, "Huh," and thought, "I'm so glad I don't have to be faithful in that. I'm not responsible for that."
At the end of the day, I'm only responsible for the life that God has given me, the place that he has put me, and that is incredibly freeing. Actually, that should really remind us of how we are not the judge and jury; we are not called to do any of that. Christ is going to do that. He will do that someday.
Emily: We don't have to give an account for her life.
Laura: Exactly, but we give an account for our own and the judgment that we do. That's sobering and humbling, for sure.
Emily: Yes. I think all of us—going back to our show about how we all err in our work—no matter how you're spending your days, I guarantee—and I say this from experience—you can be a stay-at-home mom who doesn't manage your time well, who doesn't love your kids well, who has a bad attitude, who isn't doing things to the glory of God, and you can be a stay-at-home mom and be incredibly productive with your time, be incredibly service-oriented and generous. And you can say the same thing for a working mom.
I don't think we can immediately just look at someone's choice and know what kind of mom they are. I think we need to turn that on ourselves and go, "Hey, just because I think I've made X, Y, Z right choice—wait a second, do I need to examine my heart? Do I need to examine my attitude towards my children? Do I need to examine the way that I'm honoring my own husband and the things that our family needs?"
Then, secondly, just to look at this idea of: why does this bother me so much? Is there a self-righteousness here that it's almost a pride? It's like that downward or upward comparison, where, if I think I'm right and I think you're wrong, then I get to feel good about myself. If you're doing something that "I'm not sure, should I be doing that?", then my identity goes into chaos, and I feel insecure, and I have to condemn myself.
We just don't need to get into that spiral. I think we can definitely look at other moms and learn from other moms, but we don't have to rank ourselves because, if we're thinking in light of the gospel, we are already made good before the throne of God through Christ. We don't have to jockey for position.
Laura: Em, that was so good. Yes. Another tip with developing community and all of this is to think about how you can find a couple of friends in real life—not internet friends—but friends who know you in real life, who know your values, know your family, and can help hold you accountable. These are things where you just have some friends where you can talk really frankly with one another. Emily is definitely one of those friends for me, where she was able to look at my life in real life, in person, and see, "Hey, some of these priorities are out of whack. Here are some areas where you're experiencing scope creep."
She even now will say to me like, "Hey, I see potential for this to be too much," or "I see habits that are coming back that we've talked about that you don't want in your life." They don't have to be in the same industry as you; they don't have to be doing the same type of work that you do. You can have a stay-at-home mom and a working mom both talking about these types of things. You don't have to be in a similar job at all, but you know each other's values, you believe in the same things, and you're willing to share the hard words.
Emily: Just a quick note—I think these are things that happen over the course of years. I know that Laura and I have taken years and years and years and years of working together and being friends to where we got to the point where we can say these things to each other in loving, friendly, funny way sometimes.
Laura: It probably would have hurt my feelings four years ago for you to say that. [Laughter]
Emily: Yes. Don't start off day two in your friendship correcting somebody, but we both know this about ourselves—and Laura will often say this to me. She'll be like, "Emily, is that actually a lot or does that just feel like a lot?" I know that's a nice cue to me of, "Okay, let's back up a little bit. We're letting this idea of work spiral out of control." It's really, really helpful.
I know that her and I have other friendships as well where we've walked with people over the course of years, and we've talked through different decisions about taking on a job, taking on a volunteer responsibility, cutting that back. I can think of numerous people that I've watched make different choices over the course of years, and we've talked through all of those things. I think having a wise, godly friend who follows the Lord, loves the Lord, knows their Bible, and values motherhood to do that with is so crucial.
Laura: Related to this but a little bit different would be finding friends that are in a similar sphere of work as you and have the same values as you. This has been just hugely beneficial for Emily and I—to find friends who do the same type of ministry that we do. Obviously, there are some differences, but in general, they have these ministries that they do, and then also, they really value the family. They really value God's Word. They really value their husbands.
To find these women and be able to say, "Hey, what are some strategies that are working for you?" or "Hey, do you mind sharing that document that you did?" They'll get you to where you need to go a little bit faster. Or "Here's some encouragement because I understand that exact same season that I've been through whenever X, Y, and Z happened in my career and now you're experiencing it."
They're just able to give you right thinking. Maybe they're an older, wiser woman down the path, but still in the same industry as you. Our board members—a lot of them have been incredibly helpful being able to speak into Emily’s and my life and say, "Hey, it's not going to get any easier, ladies," or "Hey, we think this is wise," or "Hey, actually, why don't you adjust it and think about it this way?"
Have people who understand what you do. If you're a nurse, find some nurse friends. If you are a teacher, find some teacher friends. If you volunteer heavily at the local thrift store or whatever, find some friends that are there, or find some stay-at-home moms. If you're full-time at home, find some of those that can say, "Hey, let's be hard workers. Let's be industrious. Let's be wise with our time." I think that that really helps to come from someone who can relate.
Emily: Totally. Ask for the nitty-gritty, practical things because I think it never ceases to amaze me how sometimes it is the practical tip of, "Here's how I get dinner made," or "Here's how I get all the laundry done," or "Here's how I pack to travel so that it makes less time or that it really serves my family well," or whatever it is. Sometimes those tips can make a world of difference, and it's the people who are in the same profession or do similar things with their time that have troubleshooted through all of that and may have some great wisdom to share.
Laura: Another is: see what you can learn from others who do it differently. This is one of those things—like what you were saying, Emily—but observing other people, asking good questions, and being willing to swap strategies.
Emily: I know Laura and I both like watching Phylicia online—Phylicia Masonheimer. She'll share throughout her day little snippets of what she's doing. Phy and I are totally different.
Laura: You guys could not be more opposite. [Laughter]
Emily: I know she has an incredible capacity, but I just love watching her because I've learned a lot from seeing how she structures her day, how she thinks about her time, how she gets ready for the day. She has such a high value on her children and her husband and her family and her work. Even though my life may not ever look exactly like that, there have been some principles and some good strategies that I've learned from watching her.
I think that all of us can probably think of women in our real lives even who—maybe we're stay-at-home mom, but our friend is a teacher. Or we're an accountant and a friend is a stay-at-home mom or whatever—we can learn from each other: "Oh, that's how you strategize that," or "That's how you organize your schedule." It's not productivity for productivity's sake, but it's productivity for the kingdom and for loving others well.
Laura: Another one is: see how you can help or encourage another mom. This is taking the focus off yourself and thinking about building a community that really supports one another. Sometimes we'll have a friend who is in a really tough season of work, and it's not going to change right now. She's just committed; she's either got deadlines, or she's working all night shifts, or whatever it is. Are there things that you can do if you have some of that capacity or time? We talked in another show about being available. Bring her meals or pick her kids up from school. Or can you provide some childcare? Offer to clean her place?
I don't know. I feel like I have been so helped by friends, where I've been able to just call them really quick and ask because I know that they will help me, and I know that they'll just drop everything to be supportive. Are there ways, though, that you can reach out and initiate that? Even when I was really going through a lot of difficulties in Chicago, I remember some friends who would say to me, "Hey, Laura, I'm coming over right now. I'm going to grab your kids so you have a free afternoon." It wasn't like I had to ask, and it wasn't like I had to reach out, but instead they just initiated. Unless I protested, and I wasn't going to. When they're going to pick up my kids, I'm like, "Okay."
That was just so huge for me, to be able to help me through some tougher seasons. Think through—maybe you don't agree with what's going on in her life, like you think she's overcommitted, or she should have planned for that or whatever you think—lay those things aside and say, "How can I be of service and love her through this?"
Emily: I think another thing to go along with that is to maybe rally support. Sometimes what people need is a little bit bigger than what one person can handle. You can get a group of friends together. You can go strategize. Of course, respectfully, in a wise, discreet way—maybe bring it up to some different leaders at church that are able to help and say, "We want to come around this family and support them," or "We want to pray with her and help her through this time or the situation," or "Let's really rally a meal train or childcare schedule to help this person transition."
I just think that is a value of the family of God—that it is a family, and we help one another. We all have different choices that we make in life—or even it's not a choice, we're just in situations where we need a little bit more support and help, and we want to be there for one another in the midst of that.
Laura: That's good. Another one—this one has been, I think, really helpful for me to consider—is think about how you speak about "the other side." Again, being somebody who's done motherhood as a full-time, stay-at-home mom and then as somebody who has, not a full-time job but a heavier part-time job, I feel like I've been on both sides of this and felt like, at times, there has been moments where I've judged moms who have worked, and I spoke about them in ways that are not honoring. Then, the other way as well, where, when I work, I feel like I snub my nose or I think, "Well, they can do it. They have got time because they're a stay-at-home mom" or whatever is.
If you're saying that out of a heart of like, "I know better," or "I know what they should do," or "They're doing something wrong," it's sin. Don't get it out of your mouth. Really being cautious of, like, how do we talk about the other side? Is it with respect and love and care for them as image bearers or is it with this broad stereotype where there's this anonymous blob that we can just speak about and we're not considering if that's honoring to someone that God has made in his image.
Emily: Right, because every single mom has their own struggles, and you don't know what's going on.
Laura: You do not know.
Emily: You don't know what's going on in someone's home, you don't know what their marriage is like, you don't know what maybe trauma or things that they've had happen in their past that they're processing through. You just don't know. Whenever we talk about people in broad brushes and stereotypes and say, "Working moms, blah, blah, blah," or "Stay-at-home moms, blah, blah, blah"—when we're not thinking about the individual women, the individual moms, and all the different struggles that we're facing and trying to come at some of the potential pitfalls of those choices or the potential great things about these choices with care and compassion and nuance and complexity—we have more of a potential and ability to slander somebody or to just say things that are false.
I don't know—I think that's been good for me to learn over the years, as I've gotten to know more moms who do a lot of different things—to say, "You know what? I don't know. Until I get a little bit closer to her, and I spend some time with her, and I see what she's like, I'm going to reserve my brash stereotypical judgment."
Laura: Yes. On the other side of that, I think that we can go on the offense against moms in, say, making these judgment calls. Then we can also get very defensive about the side that we're on, like, "Oh, I need to defend the working moms. Like we are still good mothers," or "I need to defend the stay-at-home moms because, you know what, we can still work hard, and we contribute to society. I should be paid $400,000 a year for all the work that I do." You see these memes online. Even just thinking like, "How are we speaking about our own position or decisions?" How are we taking it if there's something online where we feel like "Hey, that was directed towards say-at-home moms," or "That was directed towards income-producing moms who do income-producing work." Even the fact that we have to say it in this like—
Emily: There's not teams.
Laura: Yes, exactly. Thank you. That is it. Stop with the division of like, "I'm on team A, and you're on team B." We're all moms trying to do our best, trying to be faithful to what God has put before us. Let's consider how we're talking, even considering, like, "Oh, I need to be seen. I need to be known. I need to be accounted for. My work matters." That whole mentality. If our identity is secure in Christ as it should be, it shouldn't matter how other people talk about how we spend our days or if we make money or not. Again, going back to saying—my job is to be responsible and faithful in my life not in anybody else's.
Emily: We're getting down to the gospel right here, which is just that, at the end of the day, if we are secure before the throne of God, and we are focused on the mission that he's given us, and we don't believe that we need to earn our salvation or earn his love and his affection because we have it fully in Christ and that he is pleased with us in Christ, that we know we're here for a short time and we do have important work to for the kingdom—if that is our focus, and our focus is our own family, the things right in front of us that he's given us to do, then we don't need to spend a bunch of time out there fighting for the specific ideology.
Actually, I think what is much more compelling, to me at least, is when I see people in their real life or online, over the long course of time, showing the beauty of obedience to God in whatever choice they've made. When I see moms that are faithfully loving their families, faithfully loving God, working hard, doing a quiet life— they have a gentle and quiet spirit, they have all those things that Scripture talks about, and that is how they're living—that is what compels me. That is what just shows me the truth.
I do think there is a place for sharing "What are these biblical principles?" and offering some correctives, but doing that over the course of time—calmly, patiently, consistently, faithfully—is really different than grabbing our weapons in the mommy war and coming to attack.
Laura: You probably have a voice in some people's lives. It's probably not online in a comment section, but there are probably women in your real life, hopefully at your local church or maybe not even going to church—maybe a non-believer who can see the way that you live differently—that you can have conversations with over the course of years and years about "What does it mean to be a mom? What does God's design look like for motherhood? What is our highest calling, and how does work fit into that?"
There can be things that you talk about, but often a mom is not swayed by quick judgements and vast words that tell her she's not doing things right. Instead, they're convinced by—what Emily's saying—this long, slow plodding of beautiful obedience and seeing that played out in someone's life.
I think a mom has to be really ready and in a spot to say, "Hey, I want to change. I see that and I'm willing to talk about what I need to do differently," but while she's in those transitional stages or even in those stages where she just doesn't see it, we can just love her well, and we can believe the best that, wherever she's at right then, God's got her. I'm not the Holy Spirit, thankfully, and so I can let the Holy Spirit do his work, trust the Lord's work in that mom's life, and trust God to keep working in my life, knowing that I'm not perfect in making all the right decisions either.
Emily: The main thing we want to just draw your attention to as we close today is to examine our own hearts to think about the passions and the fears and insecurities and the things that wage war on our own hearts and cause us to attack other moms. And instead, to draw near to God, to trust him, to repent where we need to repent, and to look to him to be the ultimate judge and the ultimate sovereign over all things.
