Fun Facts & Footnotes | Obedience .05 Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Laura Wifler: Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Risen Motherhood. Emily is going to join me for the show in a few minutes, but prior to that, I wanted to let you guys know about our newsletter. If you haven't heard about it, you’ve got to get over to our website and get signed up because, guys, I feel like it's a party we release once a month. We put a ton of information into our monthly newsletter, and our hope is that it serves you really well.
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Laura: Today, we have a different episode for all of you guys. I have convinced Emily to come on and share with us a little bit about some of the stuff that she learned during her time studying obedience. One of the great things about these mini-series is that Emily and I now have the chance to do a little bit more prep work than we ever did in the past. I think in the past, what you were hearing was the stuff that was just deep in the well, that came out as we talked through topics, but within these mini-series, we’re getting a chance to be able to read a little bit more and to do a little bit more research.
One day she was just talking to me and just whipping out all this stuff and I was like, "What we need to do is we need to sit down and record this conversation, where I can learn from you all the things that you've learned.” And hopefully you guys, as the Risen Motherhood community, can learn along with me.
Emily: And me.
Laura: —No, I don't know any of this. Em does. You know it all. Why don't you just kick us off? Start wherever you want. I have no plans, but I’ll ask the dumb questions, the smart questions. I don't know, all the questions. I'm just going to insert myself in when I need to.
Emily: I think one of the things that struck me right off the bat when I started studying this is the idea that obedience is as much about what we do as it is about what we don't do. When we're thinking about the garden of Eden, what’s the main command that comes to your mind right away?
Laura: Be fruitful and multiply.
Emily: No. You know too much! What's the one thing they were not supposed to do?
Laura: Don't eat from the knowledge—Oh, my word. I can't even say it. Don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge Good and Evil.
Emily: Yes.
Laura: Good.
Emily: A lot of people immediately think of the one restrictive rule, when really, if we look at the whole picture, Genesis 1-3, there was this beautiful reality laid out of how they were going to live to be fruitful and multiply. The commands were positive in nature, if you want to view it that way, of what life could be like. It was really just the one command that was, "Don't do this."
I think that's really true throughout scripture because a lot of us tend to think of God as like, "Oh, he's such a meanie. He's so restrictive. He's just out there putting boundaries on our fun," when really, I think boundaries are a part of it, but I don't think that's the whole picture. Another thing that people tend to think of is the Ten Commandments. That's an area where there's a lot of, "Don't do this. Thou shall not."
That is there, but when we get into the New Testament, we see that there are certainly restrictions, specific guidelines, particularly with church structure and family structure. But, there are way more passages that paint this big, wonderful picture of what we should do and how we should live. Can I share one with you?
Laura: Yes, please!
Emily: This is a good one, you guys. Romans 12:9-21, "Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil, hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful and zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine. I will repay,' says the Lord. To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. For by doing so you will heap burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
I know that was a mouthful, but the literary mind in me is thinking about how many active things there were in that. That passage was not about painting a restrictive Christian life that’s afraid of stepping over the boundaries. It was about rejoicing, weeping, living honorably, being peaceful, and loving. All of those different things. So, this is actually a really beautiful picture of what it looks like to follow God, and it's not about restrictions primarily.
Laura: I was actually listening very specifically for negatives, "Do not, don'ts." Hardly any of them were. There were a couple in there, I lost count because it just kept going. [laughs] The point is, you're right, there's a huge positive element of the things that we should do, and so often all we're ever thinking about is, "What are the things that I can't do as a Christian?"
Emily: The example that comes to mind a lot when I think about this in real life, even when I was training to be a teacher, one of the things they used to tell us to do is when the kids are going down the hall, you don't say, "Don't run, don't run," you say, "Walking feet, walking feet," because if you just say, "Don't run," a lot of times kids either ignore you, or they just keep running, but they're skipping. It's like your brain actually has to replace the negative thing with something that you're supposed to do in order to take the right action. There is an essay called The Expulsive Power of a New Affection.
Laura: John? Is it John?
Emily: It's a Chalmers. I don't know. [laughs]
Laura: It's a little book you can get. I'm Googling it.
Emily: While Laura is looking it up, the main idea of this essay is that it's not enough to just tell yourself essentially, "Stop sinning. Stop sinning. Don't do that anymore." You actually have to replace that with a love of who Christ is and a belief that following him is the absolute best thing that you could do. You have to fill that with what you should do. Right?
Laura: Yes.
Emily: That's what I think is such a beautiful reality about obedience to God. It’s that, yes, there are lots of things that we shouldn't do. I don't want to diminish that at all. There are absolutely boundaries and restrictions and, "Do not cross this fence," like we talked about in another episode. If we miss that there's a whole yard to play in—I hope you heard that analogy—we're not thinking about what we're supposed to be doing, most of us are just going to stand around the fence and be like—
Laura: "What's on the other side? I wish I could be there."
Emily: Yes.
Laura: That book is by Thomas Chalmers. You were right on with Chalmers. It's a cute little book, I think you can get from—I want to say it's a Crossway book, but we'll link it in the show notes.
Emily: There you go.
Laura: I love that. I love thinking through the positives. What's another thing that you've learned about obedience?
Emily: Another thing actually that I was processing through with one of our kids recently is how impossible it is for us to obey the Lord and how high the standard of perfection is. I don't know if any of you guys have read through the Beatitudes lately. Have you read through that lately, Laura?
Laura: I thought you asked the whole audience. [laughs]
Emily: Oh, yes. Them, but you too.
Laura: I haven't done it lately, but I have read through them, yes.
Emily: I always think it's interesting because it starts with, "Blessed are those who mourn and they will be comforted," or whatever. It sounds so nice. If you actually keep reading that on and on and on, Jesus starts talking about a lot of different things and he builds this—It's the Sermon on the Mount and he builds all these arguments about who should be and how you should live.
It's interesting because in that, he raises the standard of sin not just to something like the act of murder, but he presses it deeper into the heart. It's, "You have heard it said that you shouldn't murder, but I'm saying you can't even hate your brother in your heart." I think there's another one about adultery. "You've heard it said," —I'm not quoting this verbatim, essentially you shouldn't commit adultery— “but I'm saying you cannot even lust." He's actually making it harder, and then the whole thing culminates with him saying, "You therefore must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect," and the section ends right there.
Laura: Tell us more, I would love for you to unpack this.
Emily: I was like [gasp]!
Laura: We should be perfect?
Emily: I know. I thought, "I wonder what all those people who were sitting there listening to that were thinking?" That is the standard, the standard is perfection. But, if you keep reading on, and we'll link in the show notes what the specific scriptures are, there's all these stories of people who were in need of healing and it's their faith that saves them. Jesus goes on right after that, there's a story about him cleansing a leper, and then he's healing a centurion's servant, and then he's healing a fever. There's all these pictures of people who were sick and/or dying and they're in need of a physician, and the only thing that can save them or help them is their faith.
I think that those two pieces aren’t put there by coincidence, but looking at the Gospel of Matthew, there’s this idea of showing us, “Yes, the standard is perfection, but faith in Christ overcomes that, he is the one who is going to be perfect and we are in need of his saving help.” We are dead and in need of somebody to raise us from the dead, we are sick and in need of a physician.
That is unpacked a lot more in other parts of the scriptures. Philippians 2, I think at the very beginning of that is one of those really, really helpful passages about Jesus and obedience. It talks about that he humbled himself and that he was the one who was obedient to God to the point of death on a cross, and therefore God has highly exalted him, given him the name above every name.
If we put that together with this idea of faith, it's that we need to have faith in him and we get that perfection, that righteousness imparted to us. That’s how we meet God's standard of perfection. All of that’s just to say how important it is that we realize, “That standard is actually incredibly high.” We meditate on it, it’s discouraging, despairingly high, but Jesus met that bar perfectly.
I was drawing this picture for my son the other night of—I have to draw my little scribble for you guys—the small version of him, and then imagine to the right of that, Jesus being super big. Then I drew the eyes of God on the paper looking at him because he was struggling through this idea of, "I can't do it right, I'm not perfect, I'm still struggling," and I was just saying, "You're right."
If I covered my hand over Jesus, it's just God looking at you. That’s a problem because he has to see you to look upon you and not give you wrath. There has to be righteousness and perfection there. If I cover Jesus and he's looking straight at you, that's a problem. That bar is not lowered. When I removed my hand—I drew these two little lines that look like a triangle—effectively, he gets covered by Jesus because he's standing behind him in my little doodle. If God’s looking at you through Jesus or in light of who Jesus is, he sees his perfect record and his righteousness. That's how he needs to see us.
Laura: Man, that is beautiful. There's the gospel right there for you just drawn out. I think that’s incredibly encouraging because it’s discouraging when you're only looking at what’s required of us. To see the law and try to say, "Well, I just need to be good on the outside, I need to do all the right things. I have to be this perfect little Christian or I won't be accepted," then I think we all know, when we take a deep look, even the most prideful of us all, we can feel that we don't measure up. What a promise that when God looks on us, he sees Christ.
Emily: And then that motivates us to obedience, to tie us in, because thinking about—what is it, the verse when Jesus says, "and now, go and sin no more." That is when we've realized what he has done for us and how much he has loved us, and that is what motivates us to go forward.
Laura: I love it. What's another thing? Do you have any more for us?
Emily: Yes. Obedience is the evidence that we have true faith. It's that, "Hey, if you say you have faith but you do nothing about it, that's a red flag." I think we see this a lot in the pattern of the New Testament letters. If you start to read through those, there is this rehearsal of the gospel and the promises of what Jesus did for us and how wonderful that is, but there's also parts that say, "Therefore," or, "Now, go and—" It's this if/then reality like, "If you believe this, if you really believe this, that this is the grace that you have, you will live differently." We can't really get around that.
I think that can shake us. It's a little bit of that, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” I think it’s okay for us to have moments in our walk with the Lord where we examine our lives and we just say, "Hey, if there are patterns where I’m continually walking in sin over and over and over again, and that's not bothering me or I'm not repenting of that, what does that mean?" That should shake us a little bit.
I'll just read a few passages for you. John 14:15 says—this is Jesus talking, "If you love me, you will keep my commands." James 2:17 says, "Faith by itself without works is dead." James 4:17, we already talked about this one, "Whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it for him, it is sin." 1 John 4:21, "If anyone says, 'I love God,' but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen."
This goes on and on. There's a shocking number of verses that literally equate what we believe with what we do. Now, what we've just unpacked is true, that Jesus meets that standard of perfection and that's where our hope lies, but there's also this action that has to happen.
Laura: I think that it's one of these really scary things that we see, because often I will talk with my friends or family and we'll talk about maybe a friend or family member that we care for and that we love well—or even popular Christians on the internet. You hear about just hard things. Things become uncovered, they aren't who you knew them to be, and it's just a reality check of when the obedience wasn't there that we can't know for certain, but you do think, "Man, will it be a day that the Lord says, 'You called me Lord, but I never knew you?’"
That is a very real thing for all of us to ask ourselves, is, “How does my obedience really show who I truly am?” If you're not obeying and you feel this resistance to obedience very consistently, it might be good to just ask, "Where’s that coming from? Do I genuinely believe that this is true and this is life-transforming?" To just be honest with yourself with that question.
Emily: It reminds me of David Powlison and those “X-Ray Questions” that we've talked about in the past where we're wanting to look inside our hearts and say, "Hey, I do what I do because I love what I love." My pastor says that from time to time. Just that idea that, "Hey, how I am functionally living and acting reveals something about what I value and what I believe." Your money's where your mouth is or whatever, or put your money where your mouth is. That idea that where our treasure is, there our heart will be also. It's a chance to evaluate what it is we're really treasuring.
I would also say on the flip side, I think that can be encouraging in some ways. I was recently listening to something where John Piper was talking about assurance of salvation and what a miracle it is that we wake up everyday and still desire Jesus. If today, maybe we're wrestling with an area of obedience where we're not repenting but our heart is still longing for Jesus, there is still this softness, there’s still a conviction of sin, and there can be a real comfort there that, “Lord, it’s a miracle I have not fallen away from you yet, and that you’re going to keep us to the very end.” He's going to complete the work that he started in us.
This is one of those two-sided coin points where it can be scary and convicting, but it can also be a comfort, that as long as we are still wanting to repent, as long as we are still trying to walk in that obedience, that right there shows that the Spirit’s at work in us.
Laura: I love it. This has been super helpful, super informative. I appreciate it, Em. Just all three of the main points that you made are really helpful reminders, but also are all solid, important, theological truths for all of us to get under our skin. This is one of those episodes where it might be worth listening to it a couple of times, just to really feel like you can get it—oh, Emily's giving me a terrified face. It's okay. [laughs]
I’m reminded of that quote by Elizabeth Elliot, "God is God, and because he is God, he is worthy of my trust and obedience. I will find rest nowhere, but in his holy will that isn't unspeakably beyond my largest notions of what he is up to."Next week, we're actually going to have Elizabeth Elliott, one of her talks, to be re-released on our show and we’re very excited to bring that to you guys. Look forward to hearing from a woman that has truly embodied what it looks like to obey the Lord, even in hard things. She seemed to have a true understanding of what obedience looks like in the Christian walk. Thanks, Em, again for sharing and we'll see you guys next week.