What We're Still Talking About 04: School Choice Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Laura Wifler: Man, it's been a while since we talked about education, hasn't it, Em?
Emily Jensen: I know. It's been about four years. In the meantime, you and I have tried out just about every school choice.
Laura: Oh, my goodness, you guys. Sometimes I look back at the last four years or three years—whatever it's been—and I'm just like, "Did I really do that? Did I do homeschool, private school, and public school all at once?" And you did too!
Emily: I know. It's been interesting because when we originally recorded our four-part series on education four years ago, we were on the forefront of school choices. We had maybe a handful of kids in school—one or two—and they were on the very, very front end, if that.
Laura: Like preschool. I remember we brought in interviews because we knew we can't speak to this.
Emily: Yes.
Laura: We brought in three different interviews. We had public, private, and homeschool. Some wise, experienced moms. They came in and talked to us. If you guys haven't listened to those interviews, definitely head back and listen. That was one of the things—we were on the forefront. You're right. I think we had done preschool, but I don't know if we even had kindergartners.
Emily: It's been interesting because we also wrote a chapter in the Risen Motherhood book. I remember feeling like it was difficult because, again, we were on the forefront as I was working through this chapter. And I cannot tell you how many times I have now gone back and thought about those truths.
I've had to counsel my heart in moments where the rubber met the road. I was like, "Oh, I wrote about this in theory, but now I actually need to apply this truth to my heart," as I was struggling through and wrestling through decisions. You and I have devoted hours of conversation to this—as recently as this past spring and winter—and Voxing each other back and forth every other day about our concerns, our fears—talking through different things. This is definitely still a topic of conversation.
Laura: In some ways, we still are on the forefront of it because our kids are in grade school. We have up to fourth grade now, and we've tried a lot more things, so we definitely are more experienced, but we haven't seen our kids all way through high school.
Emily: Sure.
Laura: Our opinions may continue to evolve and continue to be shaped, but we've also learned so much in the past few years. We wanted to take time to come back and talk about this. Like we said, we've got kindergarten through fourth grade. We both have children with disabilities, and so we've experienced that side of things with trying to navigate the landscape with that. Of course, in the past couple of years, for all of us, schooling has changed a lot.
Emily: This conversation has changed. There are new things involved in the conversation that we were not talking about.
Laura: Since we originally recorded.
Emily: Yes. Absolutely. Everything from masking to online schooling. There's been more things socially and politically like gender ideology or critical race theory and how that's affecting schools. There's all these different things, even from a curriculum perspective, that I think are being maybe pushed more, or we're becoming more aware of how they're being pushed.
Probably from all different angles, the whole feel of the conversation around school has changed. I know even for teachers and administrators—people would say now even just running for your local school board is like one of the most controversial things you can add to your life. Teachers are highly burned out. There's a lot of mental health struggles that are becoming more publicized. We're always aware that school is dangerous. There are definitely ever-changing factors that are in this conversation.
Laura: Absolutely. Even for homeschool moms—I think about everything that they've gone through. A lot of people tried homeschooling for the very first time in the COVID years. Emily and I are one of those moms. I think there's a lot of things that are available for moms, right?
Homeschool—they can put their kids in co-ops, and they can put their kids in other different events—but things are infiltrating everywhere; things are changing. We wanted to come back to this conversation in this What We're Still Talking About series because we are continuing to talk about education—Emily and I, in our personal lives—and yet, like I mentioned with that chapter in the RM book, the principles that we have originally talked about have remained the same. What a gift to know that God's Word never changes, even though schooling is always changing.
Emily: Yes.
Laura: We want to talk about a few of those principles today to encourage your hearts, no matter what kind of schooling you do. Here at Risen Motherhood, we are proponents of all different types of schooling, and we believe every family should listen to their personal conscience, should follow what is occurring in their local communities, and within what works for their families. We think that there are lots of answers to this question. We're going to talk about how to think through this to get to that point.
Emily: Yes. I think the first principle that still stands is that every parent is called to educate their child in the ways of the Lord. This is something that's set forth as a pattern from one generation to another. In the Old Testament, probably the most famous passage is Deuteronomy 6, where there's this: "Write this on your doorpost, speak to your children, tell them the story of God's work."
That's also echoed in the psalms. I love Psalm 145:4. It says, "One generation shall commend your works to another and shall declare your mighty acts." That's really what we're doing as parents. We are bringing up our children in the discipline and the instruction of the Lord.
In a holistic way, we are discipling them. The most important thing we want them to know is who God is and what he's done and what salvation is available in Christ. No matter what schooling option for math and social studies and art and piano—even things like that—that parents choose for methods of helping their children learn that type of information—none of us ever abdicate our responsibility for discipling them in the Lord and taking that job extremely seriously.
Laura: Yes, absolutely. That's where it comes in that schooling methods are a matter of conscience, and they're going to vary by family. This is one of those things where, sometimes, I think—when we get into our own little bubble, we can feel like this is the best answer for everyone, but we forget that everyone lives a lot of different lives, and they have different circumstances. What a single mom might need to pursue is a really different option than where you have a father who's able to bring home the income and have a mom be able to stay at home.
Thinking through things like urban schools with a graduating class of 700 or 1000 or 1500 people—that might be a different type of consideration than if you have a local small school with only a class size of 60. Or even thinking through how different areas of the country are influenced by different things.
You have red states, you have blue states, and then you have towns and little subcultures within that in the nation. We have to take it school by school, looking at your local context and not saying, "Hey, I heard this new story out there about something that's going on in California, and no matter what, now I have to homeschool."
Well, you may have a local public school that is still fairly conservative in its values, or maybe not getting caught up in the cultural landscape. It could still be a good option for you. We have to look at this as something where we are focusing in on our local context and saying, "What is the best answer for not only our family's current makeup and what my children need?"—but also knowing that we've got some different options at schools—that not all schools are the same, I guess—
Emily: Yes, and not every child is the same. You were alluding to that. We mentioned this earlier, but both you and I have children with disabilities that need extra therapies on a really regular basis—an adult facilitating their education all the time. My son is non-speaking. Schooling and things are pretty complex. We've really benefited from experts in their field who know the best way to help with communication—help with learning all these different things.
Kids are going to be different. And even personalities—whether they're outgoing and they thrive in a school setting or whether they're thriving at home or all of these different things. There are just so many factors. Some kids are more impressionable than others. I know you and I had that conversation about our kids: "I think this kid might be able to handle some of the influences and they just will bounce back. I think this child—we're going to have to do a little bit more intentional discipleship."
Thinking through those things—and especially, I think, being on the same page as our spouse—I think that's something we've observed. Not only in our own families, but in a lot of other families as they've made different school choices over the years. When mom and dad are not pulling in the same direction, and one parent's feeling like, "Oh, I really want to try this method of schooling," and the other parent is not on board for whatever reason, that can make it really hard when you hit those rough spots.
Finding a school option where maybe you don't 100% agree on everything—I don't know very many issues at all where husbands and wives agree 100% on every single thing—but where you can at least say, "We philosophically pull in this same direction. We think this is the best thing for our family at this time" usually can help facilitate environment where great discipleship can happen—where both parents are helping cheer each other on, et cetera.
Laura: We even have a questionnaire that we developed in our last school series to help husbands and wives go through this. Or if you're a single mom, gather some friends or do it on your own and discuss with somebody else. But the questionnaire is really helpful, I think, for working through a lot of these questions. If maybe you guys aren't on the same page—you and your husband—I think that this could be a really good, helpful tool to be able to help get yourselves together on the same page.
Another thing I was thinking about, Emily, that I didn't mention earlier, but I know you and I have talked a lot about how interesting it was whenever we read Elisabeth Elliott's biography—the really cool thing or the wisest thing for a Christian parent to do was to send your child off to boarding school. Do you remember that?
Emily: Yes. She really, really wanted to go to boarding school. You think today, can you imagine your best friend was going to boarding school, you’d be like—
Laura: —"What?!" [Laughter]
Emily: Again, even on this conversation, we're not trying to say that's off limits, but I think what we're trying to illustrate is: we are pretty heavily influenced by what our friend group is doing, by what the online Christian subculture is promoting at that time. We are just really influenced by the style of the day.
Sometimes, even though the principles are true, the methods are going to change and what's considered to be a good method. Even think worldwide. I was talking to a woman from Ecuador the other day. She was sharing with me a little bit about their school systems there and their options. I thought, "Wow, that's really different from what we're facing in the United States"—thinking, "Goodness, a mom in that country is thinking through these principles but applying them really differently."
Laura: Another principle is that every school option has strengths and weaknesses, risk and rewards. We take risks every single day. We take risks with our kids every single day. We get into a car, we drive down the street, we leave our children in the care of a babysitter, or we let our kids play unsupervised. We are always taking risks.
With every single school choice, there is a risk at play. It doesn't matter what choice you take—there's going to be strengths, and there's going to be weaknesses. I think about public school where there are different weaknesses that can happen there. Your child is exposed to more things. That's definitely a very real risk. There are different curriculum. There are other children that don't believe in Jesus—other families that don't believe in Jesus. Those children can grow up—I've seen kiddos who've gone to public school, and they love Jesus, and they're sold-out, and they totally understand that they're going to be different and strangers in the world.
I've also seen public school children who end up rejecting Jesus and not loving him. Same thing with homeschool, right? We think that we can incubate them and create a really safe space and control everything. At the end of the day, we've seen children both ways—ones that grow up and they're like missionaries and sold-out for the Lord and love Jesus and other children who end up rejecting Christ, feeling, "Hey, that was a suffocating environment or wasn't environment that I really liked."
The same thing with private school. I think oftentimes we can feel like, "If I just choose a Christian private school, that's going to be the answer. I can not have to homeschool my kids, but I can only incubate them with Christianity." Oftentimes, what happens is those children see that not everyone loves Jesus at a private school. Not every Christian is as authentic as they should be. They're not always following the ways of the Lord, and that can create a disillusionment with Christianity.
Certainly, children can go to a private Christian school and become sold-out believers for Jesus. We have seen that, but also, we have seen the other direction. I think when I look at all these options, and I think about how, in even my own small, tiny experience, but also anecdotally—what we see across Christian culture at large is that children are in the hands of the Lord. You do not know how they're going to turn out, and there are a variety of ways to educate them.
At the end of the day, we're not in control of their salvation. Only the Lord is. There are risk and rewards that we have to learn to take. The important thing is that we recognize the risks—that we don't ignore them or diminish them. I think that that's the key here is that we want to acknowledge them and say, "They are a very real reality," and weigh them with the heaviness or the gravity that they really deserve.
Emily: I think that's what we'd love to see Christian moms doing for one another—instead of saying, "You should, you should, you should," saying, "Mom, I want to encourage you as my friend. Let's evaluate the risks. Let's have conversation together. How can we disciple our children faithfully?" Because that's something that every single mom is responsible for, like we've said.
I think we have to give other families flexibility in how they feel the Lord is calling them to disciple. Be as strict as you want with your own decision for your own family. Do not do something that's against what you think is wise and right, but don't think that what is wise and right for your family is wise and right for every family.
Laura: Amen, Em. Another principal to come to after that is, at some point—and this was very hard for me, my friends—but at some point, after prayerfully considering these things, just like Emily is talking about, you have to make a decision by faith and parent through whatever happens.
I know for Emily and I, at many points we felt like, I don't know—it just feels like the biggest thing in your whole life, and it is big. It is important. It's good that we feel the gravity, but also, at some point, you have to be able to say, "Okay, Lord, I am going to walk by faith into this, and this is where I feel you leading my family."
I remember the first day of each one of my decisions. That was homeschool and public school—the two polar opposites. For both of them, I felt an enormous amount of anxiety, of stress, of worry that, like, "Is this the right solution? Am I doing the right thing?" Both options. Neither one felt better than the other, but I walked through those in faith. I said, "Okay, I am going to trust God. He already knows what's going to happen. He loves my child more than I do. He is capable of protecting my child. He is with my kids, even whenever I can't be. He leads and guides me."
We have all these promises from Scripture. I had to repeat those to myself as I walked in faith through each of these decisions. As moms, you could listen back to the Fear series if you are feeling nervous about any of these decisions that you're making because that series really covers just a lot of the worry and anxiety that I think that comes with school decisions.
Also just saying, "Okay Lord, I'm going to walk by faith knowing this isn't going to be perfect." There are going to be some bad days, and it's going to be hard. I think that in the different types of schooling choices that I've made—again, all the options—there have been days that I felt like, "Oh, this is not what I wanted. This is not good. I don't know what to do here. I feel lost here."
Being able to take time and parent through those things—praying with my husband, talking with wise counsel—I think that it has been incredibly helpful. Just saying, "Okay, I'm going to walk in this for at least a few months, if not the whole school year." There are reasons where maybe you should take your child out or do a switch—go from homeschool to public; go from public to homeschool, private, whatever.
In general, I think as we walk by faith, we can say, "I know this isn't going to be a perfect solution because there is no perfect solution out there. There will be hard things, but I can trust God in the midst of those that we can walk through this school year as a family that trusts in the Lord for everything."
Emily: I think if we are wanting some of that confidence or assurance as we're praying through a decision and making a decision, I know one thing that's really helped us is the outside counsel—getting people who know your family, who know your local situation.
I know for the last couple of iterations of school choice decisions that we've had over the years, our small group at church was praying with us. We had a group of six to eight believers that we were saying, "Hey, here's our concerns. Here's the things we're evaluating. Will you guys speak into this? Will you pray with us?"
When we made that decision, we knew that we had a group of people who had been praying for our family. When we came to them and said, "Hey, here's where we think the Lord's leading," and they all affirmed that and said, "Yes, that makes a lot of sense."
Or even just our parents. I know everybody has different relationships with their parents and their in-laws and things so for some this won't work, but if you do have grandparents in your life who love your kids as much, if not more than you do, and you're explaining some of the risks and rewards, and you're talking about some of your concerns, and they are affirming, and they're getting on board and they're like, "How can I support you?"—I think this is going to work well.
I think looking back to some of those things too is really helpful to say, "I have godly people in my life who know us well, and they prayed with us through this, and they are also on board with this." It doesn't mean you never change, but that's helpful.
Laura: Yes, absolutely. What can we do? What are some of those things that, as you are working through school choice—whether your kid is in high school or you are approaching kindergarten, a lot of these remain the same, right?
The first thing you can do is just pray. No matter what type of schooling you do, we should all be praying for the students and the children in our local communities that they would love Jesus and the Lord will raise up a generation of kids who know him and are on fire for him.
We have a back-to-school prayer challenge. If you haven't joined it yet, it ran earlier this year, but it's also something that you can sign up for at any time. We will send you emails to help you know how to pray for your local schools. It's designed for all the school types, so there isn't—not just one. It's for all the school types.
Emily: Yes. I love even involving our kids in prayer—praying with them on the way to school. Even a homeschool mom praying before the school day starts—praying for kids specifically as issues come up there on the spot or in the evening before they go to bed about school is really helpful.
I know something that encouraged me recently, again, as we've made the transition to public school, was just seeing that there is a group of local moms in our district that meets regularly to pray for the teachers, administrators, staff by name and to pray for specific things that are going on in the school district.
I learned recently that this has been going on for decades—that moms have just been passing the baton to one another and gathering whoever in the district is willing to pray. Be that mom. For whatever the schooling choices you make, whether it's your homeschool co-op, or, again, you're doing a public school; you're doing a private school. Be the one who says, "Let's meet once a month on Fridays, and let's pray for this whole group of children and ask the Lord to give them wisdom, to protect them, to give everybody peace." All those different things. Prayer changes things. Prayer matters. It absolutely impacts the schooling circumstances.
Laura: Another thing is just researching and asking questions. Whether you are really feeling confident in your school choice or you are thinking through what other options are, I have found this to be really helpful—of meeting with principals, meeting with staff and administration, of talking with other moms.
When I was doing homeschool, other moms who had been homeschooling for years and were really wise in it and what kind of curriculum—I think we just always also need to be students of our child's education, right? We need to be asking questions, getting involved. I know that with my kiddos’ classes, a lot of times they'll send home booklets, or they'll talk about the curriculum that they're doing, and I will research it. I will take that time to be involved.
I'm not homeschooling my kids, but when they're in school, I say, "Okay, I just want to look up this curriculum to see what they're talking about—what they're teaching." Being an involved parent—whatever kind of schooling that is—is really, really important—that you don't just say, "Okay, I'm sending my kids to a private Christian school. I'm just going to check out."
Well, I think it's still important that we say, "Let's double check this. Let's see how we can be helpful. Let's see how we can get involved." With that, you want to build relationships. That's something where—this takes time. This takes long-term commitment. This takes us really saying, "Hey, I don't want to go in there and get to know these people only because I want to control my child's education," but instead, loving them as fellow image bearers of God and recognizing them as real people with real interests, real hobbies, and saying, "Okay, I want to have a relationship with you because you're going to have a relationship with my child."
Over a long period of time, you can be someone who is on their team—who is an advocate. Not coming in saying, "I want to see all these changes," but instead, coming in and saying, "I want to be a servant, I want to be helpful." That may be having this relationship with your school board administration or that may be your local co-op or that may be like someone who teaches your kid piano lessons.
All sorts of different relationships where we say, "I'm not going to have this just be a transactional relationship. Instead, I want depth here, so that over the long haul, I can be the aroma of Christ to this person. I can be a faithful presence and not just show up when I have a complaint but instead be a real cheerleader for these people."
Emily: Another practical thing we can do, as we are looking at the risks or weaknesses of whatever school choice we are doing, is to be proactive—to get resources and have specific conversations about the gaps or the areas that you are concerned about.
This is even if you homeschool. There may be resources you want to go through on bullying or tech use, or hey, why don't we keep secrets? Or what does body safety look like? Or what is a biblical view of gender? Get ahead of those things. Be the first person to talk to your kids about that.
I have introduced so many topics to our kids that I'm like, "Hey, I think sometime you may come across this. Let's just talk about what you might do if somebody pulls out their cell phone, and they want you to look at it. What are three different responses you can have?" We practice those.
I don't know how all of that training is going to play out, but parents, you can get ahead of things and let your kids know that you're the expert. You're there to help. You're not ignorant of what's going on, and God's Word has real answers to their questions and their concerns, and he wants to help them through any challenge that they have. Show them that that help is available.
Laura: Another one is to vote. Participate in those local elections of school boards. Fill out the forms. Take the survey. Encourage your friends who aren't yet parents or grandparents to also vote and lobby for Christians to stay involved and seek leader positions in local district. And, of course, also volunteer. Get involved in local schools. Go on field trips. Communicate. Do what matches your giftings and be someone who's a cheerful giver.
Emily: Another thing to keep in mind is that, as believers, we are to speak life and to speak encouragement to others. While there are absolutely evil policies and evil curriculum and anti-biblical things that are going on in schools—there are individuals who are harming children—that's not necessarily all teachers or all administrators or all school boards.
Not everyone out there agrees with these evil anti-biblical things. We need to remember there are still a lot of teachers and administrators who love the kids and are doing the best they can in really tough situations. We don't want them to flee. Not only for our own kids' sake, but for all the kids' sake who don't just have an option to pull out and do homeschool. We want them to stay for the greater good of children.
Laura: We see people saying different things. We see news stories that feel really, really scary, and they are. It's genuine. There is an awareness that we need to have, but also, we don't want to imprint those things that are happening in another state or another community into our community.
As much as you can, like Emily is saying—"Hey, how can we be a positive influence on this?" Whatever type of schooling you choose, remember that every school, every teacher, and every situation is different. You are able to make your own autonomous decisions within your own context, within your own community, and feel confident in those things, and to live obediently the way the Lord is leading you. Just remember that the best place that you can be is in the middle of God's will.
Walk confidently, and where the Lord is leading you, get involved. Be a faithful presence in your community, no matter what type of schooling you choose, and be able to say like, "Hey, we can pivot if we need to, but this is where God has me and I am going all in where I'm at. I'm going to be faithful in this situation. I'm going to trust him. I'm going to speak positively." Those are all things that we can do as we navigate school choice.
