Ep. 160 || Walking in the Spirit: An Interview on Faithful Motherhood with Jani Ortlund Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Emily: Today we're excited to welcome Jani Ortlund to the Risen Motherhood podcast. Jani's interview is part of our Faithful Motherhood series where we talk with women whose children are grown about how the gospel has impacted their motherhood over the years. These aren't meant to be prescripted interviews for how to do motherhood, they're just a glimpse at one woman's unique walk and lessons she's learned as she's lived out her calling in the Lord.
Today we are talking with Jani about some of the hard things she faced in motherhood like fatigue, fear, and finances. She also shares about her spiritual disciplines and how she fit them in, in the little years. Don't miss at the end where she shares a kind word and encouragement for grandmothers.
Jani Ortlund is the vice president of Renewal Ministries. She has a podcast called He Restores My Soul. Jani loves spending her energy connecting women with the word of God and serves them through her writing, speaking, and discipling. She is married to Ray Ortlund and has four married children and 14 grandchildren. They do ministry together in Nashville. Okay, let's get to today's interview with myself, Laura, and Jani.
Laura: Welcome back to another episode of Risen Motherhood. You guys, today I am so excited because we have a guest here on the show. Of course, Emily is here as well, but today we are chatting with Jani Ortlund and it is a pleasure, Jani, to have you here.
Jani: I am the one who feels delighted and privileged Laura. My goodness, I love your ministry, I'm so grateful for it. Thank you for having me on.
Emily: Well, like Laura said we're just so happy to have this conversation with you. It's part of a broader series we've been doing over the last couple of years called “Faithful Motherhood.” It is a chance for moms who are listening who may have younger children at home or just any age of children at home that are wanting wisdom about what it looks like to pursue Christ.
To just hear from somebody who is further along who has faithfully raised a family and followed Christ—not perfectly but faithfully and consistently. It's just a joy. That's one of the things we hear from women a lot is that they don't get to hear from older women. We hope that this is just a little snapshot into that and a chance for them to hear.
Jani: Thank you, Emily.
Laura: Jani, before we get started too much here would you mind introducing yourself for anyone who may not be familiar with your ministry. Just tell us a little bit about your family and then what your days typically look like.
Jani: Sure, I'd love to. Ray and I met almost 52 years ago. We've been married 48 years now. The Lord has given us four children who are all grown and married and raising 14 of the most delicious little grandbabies ever.
[laughter]
They live all over. We have none near us. I've been learning how to be a long-distance grandma. Ray and I have been in pastoral ministry as well as ministry at higher education. Ray was a seminary professor for nine years. He just stepped down a few months ago from the lead pastor position at a church we planted, Immanuel Church Nashville. Now, we're devoting ourselves full time to another ministry we had on the side but now it's full time called Renewal Ministries.
It's a ministry where we travel to speak to different churches and at different conferences. We have opportunities to write and disciple. It's a ministry that calls for God's renewing mercies to flow into the lives of weary people through weary people. Then Jesus gets the glory and we get the joy. We're so grateful to be doing that now in our 70s.
Laura: That is a gift. I'm so glad that you guys have been able to transition to another season. What an awesome thing that you'll be able to do more writing! I feel like that is wonderful and will bless so many people.
Jani, what we want to do today, as Emily said, is we just want to have a conversation with you.
We want to talk about the hard, the good, the bad, and the wonderful of motherhood. Maybe to kick us off here, could you just share with us some of the hard things that you experienced in motherhood, especially in those younger years, because that's where a lot of our audience tends to be at? Just share how you saw God's character and his faithfulness in some of those hard moments.
Jani: I think as I look back, the hardest parts for me, I would call the three F’s. I didn't do well in them. They were fatigue and fear and finances. Those were the three areas that were the hardest for me.
Let me start with fatigue. I didn't realize how hard it was not to be able to sleep each night. All those babies, they just wanted me. We had our first three in less than three years. I remember one night I was so tired. We lived in a tiny little house less than 950 square feet. All the babies were in a room together and about 5 feet down the hallway was our bedroom.
Baby number three, who will remain unnamed, was not sleeping through the night very well. The other children were almost three, almost two, and this baby was nine months. He still wasn't sleeping through the night, and I was just so exhausted. Ray was tired too. He was pastoring, working on a master's degree, teaching Greek two nights a week from six till nine. He was very busy as well. The hardest part for me with the fatigue was that Ray could sleep through a crying baby. That's just not fair.
[laughter]
I keep getting up in the night and nursing Dane back to sleep so he wouldn't wake the rest of the house. Eventually, I started growing bitter. One night as Dane was crying, I was awake and Ray was snoring. I started crying right next to Ray. He didn't wake up. I started crying in a whaling sort of, "Help me, I'm drowning. You better help me, Ray." He woke up, "What's the matter is the house on fire? What's happening?"
I just told him, I said, "I'm so tired. I can't do this anymore." He said, "Honey, why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you wake me? Why didn't you ask for help before now?" The next morning he got up, called an older friend who didn't have any little babies and had a guest room. He sent me away for the next night. I got eight hours, it was wonderful.
I want to encourage your young listeners who are really, really tired to not just play the martyr game, but to ask for help. Sleep when your baby sleeps if you can or ask your husband, could you have a night off where you got five to six hours in a row. That will do wonders for you. Fatigue was one of the hardest parts for me.
Another thing that was really hard was finances. I think young moms struggle with this because their husbands are in the beginning of their career. They don't have savings built up. They are often living paycheck to paycheck, and that was something the Lord really had to work with me on. It wasn't as if I could pay a babysitter to come in and help me. It wasn't as if I could pay someone to come clean the house for me so I could mother my children perfectly. Part of the time I had to work part-time. Finances were a bit of a heartache to me and an area where I didn't really trust the Lord.
Which brings me to the third area I really failed in, and I think young moms might struggle with this too. My third F is fear. I just was so fearful. I don't know if you can identify with this but I feared everything. From my kid's tonsillectomies to their salvation. Everything was a matter of, "Will I succeed as a mom? Will they love the Lord? Will they marry the right person? I'm so fearful because I lost my temper again and now I've ruined them for life because I lost my temper.
[laughter]
Those three Fs really consumed more emotional and spiritual energy than they ought to. I remember Ray's mum, Anne Ortlund, who is such a godly influence to me. One time she saw me kind of dwelling on my fears and stewing in them, and she said, "Jani, you've got to stop being so fearful." Then she said—I haven't checked this out, maybe one of your listeners or either one of you know the answer to this—but she told me, "The Bible has more than 365 fear not's that's one for each day, Jani. That ought to be enough to get you through. Come on girl, stop fearing."
I had to learn that the opposite of fear for me wasn't courage. It wasn't just drumming up more courage. It was increasing faith. I was spending time with the Lord.
Emily: Yes, I think so many moms are probably nodding along, maybe tearing up as they're listening to you because many of us are fatigued. We are fearful of exactly the type of thing you're saying. It's not only the health things but, "Did I just do something that my child is never going to recover from?"
We struggle with that faith and so could you just speak into maybe some of the things you did? Some boundaries, habits, disciplines that rooted you in the word and that helped you be happy in God's presence when you were in the thick of those harder, well maybe not harder, but the hard early years of motherhood. Things that increased your faith like what you're sharing. Were there any habits or practices you could share with us that helped your growth and godliness?
Jani: That's a good question Emily, thank you. Oh my goodness, I can think of a couple of things. The first thing that helped me was the habit of belonging to a community of faith, so I wasn't alone. I had to make myself attend regularly. It's so easy when a baby is sick or a baby is napping during church time and you're thinking, "The whole day will be ruined and then tomorrow she'll be so tired. I won't go to church. I'll wait till she's through this napping stage." But I needed a community of faith around me.
Other young moms who got it. Older women who loved me and loved my children and could see when I was failing, and they could step in to help me. I also needed to find time every day to listen to and talk with God. Now, that's really hard for young moms because you do not set your own schedule, your babies do. It often would seem to me that the earlier I got up, the earlier my babies woke up.
Emily: Yes!
Jani: It wasn't as if I could just set my alarm clock and get up. I can do that now as an older woman, but I couldn't then. I had to learn to try, and if they got up, not to get angry with them. It wasn't their fault that they woke up. Then to reserve some time during naptime to be with the Lord. So I had to find time to be with the Lord every single day. It's the only way that I made it through because I found that he gave himself to me as he will to each one of your listeners.
I think of the time He gave me Isaiah 40:11 when I was so exhausted. It talks about how God will tend his flock like a shepherd and he will gather the lambs in his arms and carry them in his bosom. That's really close to his heart. The fact that he would carry my little ones so responsibility wasn't only with me. I was his servant. A servant means that—being God's servant means that I'm his responsibility so he would care for me. The last phrase in that verse in Isaiah chapter 40:11 is, "He will gently lead those with young."
We serve a shepherd who doesn't jerk us around, and he understands the needs of a young mom and the little lambs that she is caring for. What helped me most? What habit or discipline helped me most was being in God's word, spending time with him, letting him feed me because what I pour into me is what will come out. If you come up and knock a mug of coffee, what's going to spill out? Coffee. Whatever is inside me when I'm hit or jostled is what's going to come out, and so I want to make sure to drink deeply from the well of living water each day.
Laura: I love that. I think that connects so well too to what you're talking about with fear and just feeling like that can encompass a lot of your motherhood. How you even said, "I realized that I had to grow in faith instead of fear," and that's what matches it or meets it. I think about that often, the call not to fear, but the way that we do that is by giving our fear to the Lord and trusting Him with it.
There's an element that in motherhood (and all of life), there will always be hard things and things to fear and things to be afraid of, but it's what we do with that fear and what are we filling ourselves with, like you're talking about. Filling ourselves up with the words of God that the promises that he gives us to be our peace and our comfort and to care for us and to hold us. I really appreciate that. Those work together as we face anxiety and fear as mothers, the best thing that we can do is to run scripture, run to the cross, and trust God with that.
Jani, can you talk to us a little bit about what it might look like to walk that out? What does it look like to live according to the Spirit? Especially in these mundane days that we go through as moms doing the same things over and over? It can feel very unexciting at times. Can you give us an encouragement of what it looks like to walk in-step with the Spirit throughout our days?
Jani: What a good question Laura. I wonder how much time we have to discuss this.
[laughter]
That could be a series of five sermons, but I think back to that verse in Romans 8:5–6 where it talks about those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. It's been a lifelong difficulty for me.
I struggled not to set my mind and heart on things of the flesh, especially I struggled as a young mom because I was working so hard. I wanted to either reward myself or refresh myself, and I would think in terms of, "Okay, I'll get the babies to bed and then I'll turn on this video." I know that was back in the dark ages when you had—
[laughter]
Then I would stay up till 10:30 or 11:00 watching this video, rewarding myself according to the flesh, but then I'd be tired and mad when the baby woke up at two o'clock for a feeding because I'd only had a few hours sleep. What I needed to learn was how to set my mind on the Spirit. What did that mean? Well, we already talked about, of course, daily food from the Spirit, but I had to find ways in my weekly schedule and in my home to make the Spirit more visible, more hearable, more present. So I did a couple of different things.
One, I tried to listen to more scriptural music and have that on with the children as well. I tried to watch the company that I kept. I tried to meet with other young moms who were wanting to walk according to the Spirit. In fact, when our three little ones for about two and a half to three years, I traded my three kids for her two once a week. Each Tuesday morning, we would trade-off. I don't know if this makes sense, but two Tuesday mornings a month, I had from 9:00 until 12:00 to walk according to the Spirit.
We promised each other, this is my friend Charlene Worts. I don't know if you're listening today Charlene, but if you are, I still love you. We had from 9:00 to 12:00 where we promised each other we're not going to grocery shop, we didn't have computers back then, but we're not going to waste our time in any other way but walking according to the Spirit whatever that meant in our life.
Whether it was catching up on our Bible reading, whether it was spending time in prayer, whether it was listening to Christian music as we walked around the lake. Whatever to fill my life with the Spirit—that really helped me. It was only two times a month, but that helped me walk according to the Spirit.
I tried in our home to have lots of scriptures posted all around. When I'm at the sink washing dishes, there's a verse there. My eyes can wander to when my heart is sagging or on my mirror when I'm trying to comb my hair or put on makeup, of course, all your listeners have all sorts of time to do their makeup in the morning, right?
[laughter]
With kids around their feet. Another thing that I did as far as in our home looking at scripture is I learned to choose one verse that God seemed to be placing in my heart for a few months, maybe up to six months and meditate on that verse and think about it. When my heart started going to a place of comparison, or resentment, or bitterness, a sinful spot that I knew was dark and not helpful to my life as a mom and walking in the Spirit, I could come back to that verse.
In fact, my assistant, she knew I was struggling last week and she sent me a new verse to meditate on. It's from Revelation 7:15. I thank you, Heidi Howerton, for this verse. It says that he will shelter them with his presence. I needed shelter. Just those words, those five, six, seven words, "He will shelter them with His presence." It helped me and it continues to help me to live according to the Spirit when I meditate on his word. When I have a phrase readily available right then when I need it.
Emily: I think those ideas are so helpful, and they're such good reminders. One of the things I've been struck by lately in all of the busyness and the monotony of life, and sometimes feeling like, "I can't even get my head above water," is to realize what God is asking us to do to walk in the Spirit, is really quite simple. It's not rocket science. It doesn't require me to purchase a bunch of fancy resources. A lot of times, it's just attending to my inner life and doing the disciplines that I already know that I should do, and really making time for that and seeing them as essential and a priority.
That I have to stick this in front of my face on my mirror, or over my seat, or to really make that intentional time to use childcare not just for grocery shopping, or not just for this extra work I need to get done, but to meet with the Lord. That even though it feels like, "That can be put on the back-burner. I can do that another time." The reality is that's the most essential refreshment that I need to be able to walk according to the Spirit, as you're saying. Yet, it's so hard. It feels so hard because that's not what our flesh wants to do.
Our flesh wants to watch the show, or look at social media, or find this kind of instant gratification. I think that's a common battle, but I just love all those tangible ideas. Hopefully, a mom can feel like there's something in there that she could do today that's not that hard. Well, it's hard. Excuse me. It's simple. It's not that complicated, but it may be challenging.
Jani: Yes, just because something is hard, it doesn't mean that it's bad. When you're so exhausted, you feel like it's too big a mountain to climb because it's so hard. I found the hardest things in life have been the most rewarding. Think of labor, nursing, losses. All the hard things, they bring about fruit, they bring about eternal fruit. I think it's so right. It is hard to walk according to the Spirit, but we have a tender Shepherd who understands, and who calls us to himself, and will gently lead us.
Laura: That is super encouraging. A friend reminded me of this saying the other day about how “perfection is the enemy of good.” Then another friend rephrased it to, "Perfection is the enemy of progress." As I think about that, especially in our spiritual disciplines and our practices, how often we stumble because we're looking only for perfection. We feel like, "If I can't get it right, then why try at all?" No, this is still good, this is still worthy. We have to master the restart of picking things back up again and not feel like, "I have to be perfect."
Because none of us are, we never will be, and that's what Satan uses to defeat us, and he will win if that is our end goal. To encourage any mama who's listening out there, and remind her that perfection is not the goal. Try again and again, and God will honor that. He will honor that effort that you put in.
Jani: I love that. Could I just throw in a verse that applies to that right now?
Laura: Yes.
Jani: I think of a verse I was meditating on last fall, it's from Ephesians 5:10. I'm pretty sure that's the reference. It says, "Try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord." I love that first word. It's try. That's all the Lord is asking. He's not saying be perfect, as you say. He's just saying, "Try, try to discern." That means it does take some thinking. You're not going to get it right all the time. There's just a little insight needed. Just go there. Try to go into that. What will bring a smile to Jesus' face? How could I please you today, Lord?
Maybe it's taking a nap rather than reading my Bible for half an hour. Maybe it's finding a verse to meditate on. Maybe it's calling that older woman and saying, "Would you be willing to take the kids for two hours, so I can spend time with the Lord." Whatever it is. Try, just try. You don't have to succeed. You just try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord, and he'll smile over you.
Emily: We re-read Pilgrim's Progress with our kids every January, that's a tradition from Laura's family. I'm married to Laura's brother, that's the connection there. So, we carry that on. One of the things I was struck by in this year's re-read is how Christian is promised when he begins his journey that he's not going to be without help or without comfort.
It's not that the journey will be easy, but he just keeps going. If he just looks for help, recalls God's promises, looks to his friend for hope and encouragement, there's always help available for the one who cries out. I just remember that with the Spirit inside of us too, that there is always help when we need it. When we feel like it's too big of a mountain to climb, or I don't even have the energy to try, we can cry out for the Spirit's help.
Janie: Yes, we serve the God who sees, who hears, who cares, who acts on our behalf. We can just throw ourselves on him, on his loving mercies, and wait for him to help us.
Laura: Well Jani, I want to shift topics just a little bit here, because one of the most frequently asked questions that we get here at Risen Motherhood usually is around the topic of marriage. Not always, but marriage is definitely a big question. Especially, as we add children to the mix, marriage can feel really difficult at times.
I'm curious if you can just offer our audience some encouragement in their marriage. We know you and Ray have an amazing marriage together. You talked about how many years you had been together at the beginning of the show. What has made some of the most impact on your love and on your intimacy with one another?
Jani: I probably should confess some of the hardships for me early on, so your listeners don't think, "She had it perfect back then. She never understood what I'm feeling today." I do remember some nights as Ray would come home from teaching, and I had the kids all day from early in the morning until 10:00 at night. He'd come to bed and want to get a little cozy—
[laughter]
—and I thought, "Oh, my goodness. If you only knew how many little bodies have been grabbing at my body. How many little mouths have been gaining life from my body, and I am too tired." So, I want your listeners to know that I do remember. It is exhausting. Again, he gently leads those with young. God does not expect more of us than he's willing to help us give. Here are a couple of the things that helped me.
One was if the children were awake when Ray got home. There were usually a couple of nights each week when he had to work through the dinner hours and bedtime. If they were awake, I enlisted their help to get the house ready for daddy, "Oh, daddy's coming home. Let's see who can earn a Skittle by picking up the playroom nicely, let's do that. Who can help me set the table? Mommy's going to go comb her hair, do you want to comb your hair? Let's get ready for daddy coming home."
Try to enlist the kids, so it wasn't just me all alone trying to get the house ready and the kids ready for Ray. I wanted the children to see that Ray was the leader in our home. He was number one on my list, even before the children. Oftentimes too in the morning, it was so easy for us—I'd be changing a diaper or trying to get someone their breakfast, and Ray would have to leave for an early morning meeting and we'd shout at each other, "Goodbye honey. Have a good day. I love you."
At one point, I just thought, "I don't like this. I don't want his last memory of me being a raised voice, 'Goodbye. Have a good day.' I wanted it to be in his arms." I began what I called the six-second kiss program. [laughter] That every morning when Ray left, he was to find me before he walked out that door. He was to put his arms around me, and whatever I was doing, if I was putting makeup on, if I was changing a diaper, I just keep one hand on the baby and my other arm around him, and he was to give me a very married six-second kiss. Then I would say, "You remember that, and come home to another."
[laughter]
Jani: We tried. We still try to give each other that kind of goodbye in the morning. Who knows what might happen during the day. I would encourage your young moms, wherever daddy is when he's leaving, give him a very married kiss and ask him to carry it with him through the day.
The final thing I would add that Ray was really good about, try to get away for one night if not more each year you're married. Now, that might sound like very little, but for our budget and our schedule when our children were at home, that was a lot. We really had to plan how to find someone who would watch four kids and how we could afford to get away for a night, but it was really important for us to remember that our family started with the two of us. It will, if God wills, it will end with just the two of us.
Emily: Yes, that's so encouraging. I think it can be hard to remember to keep our marriage relationship and cultivating that intimacy at the forefront for all the reasons that you mentioned because it's busy, we're in a rush. It sometimes feels awkward to stop and embrace your spouse in the middle of everything that's going on.
I think yes, it can look different for all of us, but finding what helps our spouse feel like, "Okay, I am prioritizing this. I love you. I'm invested in this. We're in it together," is so important. I just appreciate the wisdom that you shared and just that reminder that it's our marriage that's Lord willing, as you noted, is going to go the distance, so that's good.
Laura: It's funny, we often say this in our household, "Daddy gets the best." It's a phrase mostly for me, the mama, that I'll just remember to prioritize and put my husband first. Because so often it can be, “I want to take the biggest slice of pizza,” or “I need to get the kids clothes all folded and put away and dad can do his own later.”
I think I have a natural mentality where, “I need to take care of the kids.” Daddy is a grown adult and he can take care of himself later, or he can get the leftovers, but it's been a great reminder for me. As my kids have learned that phrase too, they'll see like now the biggest piece of pie and just say, "Daddy gets the best. This is daddy's,” or different things like that.
Jani: I love that!
Laura: It's been super sweet and a great phrase, and it's something that it's been really, really helpful in our family. But all of that to say, I think so often it is such a decision to make these moves of putting your husband first or—like the “six second married kiss.” I love that! But it's such a choice. It is not necessarily what we feel in the moment, but it is saying, "No, I'm going to choose to prioritize and put you first because that's what I want my heart to be."
My husband will often say to my kiddos that he loves mommy first and then he loves all the rest of our kids equally. My son says back, he says, "Well, I love my sisters first and then I love mommy and daddy." [laughs]
Jani: Awww.
[laughter]
Laura: So cute, you know I'm like, "Okay, that works." It's just been fun to see them pick up on these little things where we're prioritizing one another. We're choosing to say, "Hey, our marriage is really valuable," because as you guys were saying, that's what we have, Lord willing at the end, that it is the two of us, and that we're just stewards of our children until the time that they're able to leave the nest or to live on their own.
Jani, as we close here, can you maybe give a word to grandmothers that are listening. We have a smaller audience of grandmas, but we definitely have some women who are in those grandmother-years, and really want to love their daughters and their daughters-in-law well and of course, their grandbabies.
Although I would say it seems pretty easy to love those grandbabies.
[laughter]
Jani: Yes, very easy.
Laura: We would just love to hear from you on that topic of what your experience has been in life grandma-ing 14, I think you said, grandkids.
Jani: Yes. What a privilege for me. Ray and I feel so honored that our children welcome us into their families and into their children's lives. I think if I wanted to say anything to a grandmother, I would say, your relationship to your in-law child, whether it be a son-in-law or a daughter-in-law, needs to be of a higher priority than your relationship to your grandchildren. I would encourage grandmothers to really focus on the in-law in your family. Love that son-in-law, love that daughter-in-law for who they are, what they bring to the family. Remember them, praise them.
It could be that they do things differently. Well, hallelujah! You don't want everybody in the whole world to grow up just like the same. You married to bring in another family, to develop a new family. First of all, honor that marriage however you can. Then for those wonderful little babies that start coming, what a gift from the Lord!
For so many grandchildren, a praying grandparent has been a huge influence. Our pastor, TJ Tims, just mentioned that yesterday. His grandmother prayed for him every day of his life, and he thinks that's one of the reasons he's a pastor now. Praying for our grandchildren is the most important thing we could do, and letting them know. I have a prayer notebook and our grandchildren see my prayer page for them. I have them write their signatures as they're able to in different seasons of their life and let me know how I can pray for them.
I also think that providing for your grandchildren as you're able, is one thing that a grandmother can do. I remember when we just didn't have the money to send our kids to camp, but so wanted to. Now as a grandparent, I could do that more easily, or sometimes just sending the mom off to get her hair cut and she doesn't have the money for that. She's trying to figure out how to buy milk and eggs and peanut butter and keep these kids fed, but provide for them somehow.
Pray, provide and I think the last thing I would encourage grandmothers to do is another P Word. Proclaim. Proclaim God's faithfulness into that baby's life. Talk much about the Lord with that grandchild. Read to them from children's Bibles. Tell them stories of faith from your own life, how God was faithful to you. Dream with them about God's future for them all, "Oh, I wonder who he's going to have you marry. I wonder why he made you just the way you are, with your happy spirit or with your smart mind." Whatever you see to praise in your grandbaby. Speak much of God over them. Proclaim the mighty works of God to that grandbaby.
Emily: Thanks for that word of encouragement and just those three P's, that's something that hopefully any grandmother who's listening can remember and put into practice. I know Laura and I both have just some incredible parents and in-laws who have been really involved and have done many of the things that you mentioned.
It is a huge blessing to us and just a great encouragement to feel like we're supported in passing along the gospel to our children by our parents, in-laws, and that that is a cohesive work and so just thankful for that. Anyways, thank you again, Jani, for coming on and sharing just your wisdom and looking back on your years of motherhood and reflecting. Yes, just passing along that information to us. It's just really encouraging.
Jani: Thank you for having me. The Lord bless you and your listeners.
Laura: You as well. If you guys want to find out more about Jani and her ministry, head over to our show notes today at risenmotherhood.com. You'll find the podcast button there and the show notes inside. We'll have links to all of her different places that she's at and that she's doing ministry in, so you can learn more about what she's done. We hope you guys have a great day.