Gospel Mom 03: On Why God Feels Distant + Other Things (GM - C5-6) Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Laura Wifler: A few years ago, Em, you and I coined the phrase, “The little years are not the lost years.” I feel like it became a bit of a mantra for Risen Motherhood. It seemed to resonate with so many moms, I think, because it can be used in a ton of applications. We lose a lot of things in motherhood—our habits, our self-care, our sleep—and even thinking back to our last mini-series, Whole, that we did last spring, you and I—as moms, we have to go through a season where we have to rediscover some of those things that it felt like we lost.
But, when we originally coined this phrase, what we really meant was that the little years do not have to be the lost years in terms of our spiritual disciplines and our spiritual habits. There are those two main questions that we hear from moms. They're saying, "Hey, how can I apply the gospel to my life the way that you guys do?" Which we talked a lot about in the last show. Then also, “How do I have time to fit in”—fill-in-the-blank spiritual practice? Quiet times, prayer, Sabbath, Scripture memory—those kinds of things.
Emily Jensen: All the things. Because we have such a specific picture in our minds as moms about what those things are supposed to look like. I think especially if we sincerely want to follow the Lord and we love Christ, we want to be spending all this time doing these things. We have this idealistic, great plan in our minds: we're going to have a prayer binder, and I'm going to go through all these friends, and I'm going to do all of these different things, and I'm going to have my quiet time this way and all of these different things.
We realize that motherhood requires a tremendous amount of flexibility and figuring out what that looks like in our lives. I think the reality is that learning to apply the gospel—all of these truths that we find out in Scripture—to our lives is very much related to how disciplined we are in doing some of those things and how regularly we are connected to God through his Word and prayer.
There's very much this sense of—yes, we need his Word, but we need some means of—it's called a “means of grace” a lot of times, right? A means of interacting with that regularly. I think just—we know this from other topics in life where, if something is right in front of you, you're thinking about it a lot, but it's “Out of sight, out of mind.” If you're not reading something or looking at something for a long time, you forget about it. That's true about God's Word, too.
Laura: I think that's where those two questions are so interrelated. To me, it's almost like the same question because you're saying, "Hey, how do I get gospel growth?” Then also, “How do I have time for spiritual disciplines?" It's like—well, you can't have spiritual disciplines without getting gospel growth. That's a natural by-product. That's awesome. And then you don't really have gospel growth without practicing those spiritual disciplines. They come hand in hand.
We see a lot of moms asking for those things, and we want those things, too. That's where what we're talking about on today's show—spiritual habits, spiritual disciplines—become so important because they are really how you start to get it under your skin for what it means to be a gospel mom.
Believing in the gospel—you're saved once; you don't have to do it over and over again, but that growth part takes time. It's something that we're always moving in. We talked a ton about it last episode—all the opportunities that we have for growing in our understanding of God and his plan for our lives. We want to talk today about what those habits and practices look like. We're going to do, of course, as per usual, a big flyover of these things. We use a plant analogy in the book for moms. Em, this was your idea, so I want you to talk it out for the crew.
Emily: I was feeling very inspired by houseplants when we wrote this—or frustrated with them. One of the two. We were trying to come up with some different categories or ways of thinking about this. One thing that a gospel mom needs is spiritual disciplines. These are probably the things that we're most familiar with, like reading your Bible on a regular basis. We talked about this in the last episode—plow and trowel, the Abide Method, all of those different things. Things like prayer are really important to do on a regular basis. Things like meeting together in corporate worship and being a part of a church and having other believers in our lives.
Laura: Memorizing Scripture, another one. Sabbath.
Emily: Yes, memorizing Scripture. A lot of these things are Word-based—Word of God-based. They're the straightforward things we think of when we're like, “Quiet time.” What are those spiritual disciplines?
We really were talking about these as the stake in a mom's life. I have some plants at home that are near a window, and they've gotten rather large. If I did not have a stake tied to them, they would be folded over onto themselves. Their growth would be stunted. They would not be able to freely reach toward the light. The stake just provides a support for healthy growth.
We really feel like that's a lot of what these disciplines do in a mom's life over and over again—they provide you that regular support that you need to keep growing in Christ. As you read the Word, it does not return void, and God does work in your heart. As you pray and you talk to God, that allows you to have your eyes open to the things that he's doing. There's all these different implications of that.
We feel like this is the thing that—these spiritual disciplines—you need them in every season. They're not going to be exactly the same, in the same quantities and same forms every time. But these are the things that you really need in your life as a Christian to grow throughout the course of your walk.
Laura: I think that's why it's good to put energy and effort towards spiritual disciplines. We have a lot of past shows—basically, on every spiritual discipline, we probably covered a full show. Instead of going through them all here for you, we want to point you to that. Again, in our book, we've really detailed out a lot of those things and how they work in mom-life and some even immediate action steps that you can take. Again, the shows do a lot of those kinds of things as well.
With spiritual disciplines, again, that goes back up to what we just were talking about. This is how you really learn to understand what it means to be a gospel mom. I think what's interesting is these spiritual habits, which is a different chapter in the book—they're more of an art form. They're still going to help you get the gospel under your skin, but it's almost the practice. It's the living out of these disciplines that you've been spending so much time putting energy and effort into.
It's like, “Okay, now I'm applying these things” into the habits in order to have a more holistic lifestyle that honors the way God's plan and design is for humanity and for the way that we were built. Things in spiritual habits—those are a little bit more like the—I think of a lot of my plants, and I feel like they're finicky. They might need a little bit more sun and need to be turned a little bit or rotated. I'm like, “Oh, that's all you needed was just to be rotated or pulled out of the corner.” Maybe it's something like when you need to prune your plants, and you got to Google it and figure it out and try a few times—when you should fertilize it and all these different things.
With that—with a mom, that equates to things like how much rest we need, how much self-care and what kinds we need, experiencing awe of God, monitoring what we take in, knowing that what we put in our hearts and minds through our eyes and ears is what comes out—even thinking about friendship. A lot of those different things are really where these spiritual habits are formed, and it's these regular rhythms of soul care that really help us thrive and flourish as a Christian.
There are things that are a little touch and go. They take being willing to adjust. Sometimes spiritual disciplines—I could just be like, “Okay, memorize one verse a week,” and I can do it the rest of my life and know that I'm going to grow type of thing. Spiritual habits don't always feel so clean-cut.
Emily: I think when we say, “The little years are not the lost years,” what we mean is that these things—these habits, these disciplines—are available to us in every season of motherhood. We also need to be open-handed and flexible about what they look like, knowing that, in some seasons, it's going to be just listening to the audio Bible ten minutes a day, and we're doing good to do that three days a week. Or whatever those things are.
Then, in other seasons, we might be involved in a really intensive Bible study, and we're meeting together with other women going through that regularly. These things are going to come and go. The point is that they can be integrated into your life, and they need to be integrated into your life in some way. And not to just throw them to the side and say, "Okay, maybe when my kids are older, maybe when I have less things on my plate—then I will worry about these things." Or "Oh, I know I'm vegging out a lot on Instagram right now," or "I'm not really monitoring—the Netflix shows that I'm watching are getting to be pretty bad, but oh, well. That probably doesn't matter that much."
It's recognizing that all these different pieces of the puzzle in our lives form us and shape us and contribute to how healthy we are and how well we're growing. Ultimately, the growth is by the Spirit through the Word of God. We can cultivate and create habits and environments and patterns that allow good healthy growth to happen or tend to make growth really challenging, and we get to participate in that. That's so exciting.
What is your favorite part of these chapters, Laura?
Laura: My favorite was definitely the plant analogy. It's really woven throughout both chapters. One of the things that we talk about is how every plant is unique. We even mentioned my mom's love for plants and how caring for each of them is an art form. I think what is so great about this is that you need to find what works for you. I know that I've met friends—it's funny because I feel like, at my church, there are these women who love the deep, line-by-line Bible study, and they are just diehards. For them, that is their lifeline.
Then we have other women who are at a point where they're just like, "Hey, I just want something a little bit lighter. I want someone to hold my hand a little bit more." That's great. They're both studying the Bible. They're both in God's Word.
Emily: They're both growing.
Laura: They're both growing. Different things are working for each of them. That can be from, for so many reasons—personality, life experience, where they're at with the Lord. There are a lot of different things that factor in. One of the themes I know that you and I continually go back to at Risen Motherhood and in our book, Gospel Mom—especially in this podcast series, as we talk about what a gospel mom is—it's allowing yourself freedom to flourish in Christ as the mom that God made you to be.
When we think about spiritual habits and spiritual disciplines, so often we want that roadmap. We want the checklist. We want to look, "Okay, she's doing it for thirty minutes a day. Well, I need to do that same thing too." "Wow. Look at her memorizing verses, and she's got tattoos on her wrist with letters. Oh my goodness. That is what a good mom who wants to grow in Christ does."
No. You can take time—just like "Hey, we liked this vacation. We didn't like that vacation very much." Great. Go where you like to go. I think, within that, there is freedom with what God has for us—of saying, “You can study the Bible like this. You can study the Bible like that.” There are also ways to not study the Bible.
Emily: There are bad ways.
Laura: There are bad ways, too. But within these boundaries, there's so much freedom. I love that. I love that for us. I love that for moms.
Emily: I love the plant analogy, too, because what's encouraging to me always is to remember that my plants' lives are not going to rise or fall based on one missed watering. It's really the pattern and the trajectory of what you do to them over time. It's not the one little thing that you missed—like “Oh, I forgot to pull that leaf off," or "It's looking a little dry over there, and I neglected it." It's like, "Okay, well, let me go ahead and fill it up now."
They are really resilient. I don't know. I just think about that a lot. Sometimes it feels like we're rating ourselves each day by “Did I do this discipline? Did I not do this discipline?” and “I'm good,” or “I'm not good.” Our lives are so much longer than that. We're so much more resilient than that. God is so much bigger than that. Yes, all of this—if I stopped watering my plants, eventually, they would die. But there's a lot more to them than that. They're not that fickle.
I also loved that we covered the spiritual habits part. I know when we started out writing the book, we knew we want to cover the obvious things—the Bible reading, the prayer, the fellowship with church. Then we felt like there were all these other things that had impacted us as moms that were really rooted in principles in God's Word. We weren't even sure how to bring them all together. Remember when we were like, “How are we going to categorize all of these? What do you include in the book and not include in the book?” In the end, we didn't include every habit we could have included.
Laura: So many things.
Emily: We just picked some that we felt like were most helpful. That's really where the habits chapter was born—like looking beyond just quiet time and trying to think about all different areas that, if we live in line with the way that God created us, it works better that way. It does contribute to an overall healthier Christian growth, a healthier life—knowing the fall, all those things.
I don't know. I thought it was really interesting diving into the implications of, again, the things that you watch and take in, who your friends are, how you rest—all of that also matters to your growth as a Christian.
Laura: Even with the habits, so much of it is cultivating a sustainable life. I find that when my habits are in line, I actually do better at my disciplines. Sometimes I don't think it's the other way around. Maybe for some people it is—we're all unique—but that idea that I might have my disciplines down pat, but they're just rote, and I'm really not living in a sustainable way. I'm not engaged in community or deep discussions with friends. I'm not experiencing awe. I'm not getting good rest—things like that.
I'm checking some boxes off, but typically, that means that the transformation is much harder. It's like I'm asking my body to work uphill. I find that, when I have some of those habits set in place, typically, that affords more flourishing holistically in my life. They're so often forgotten because I think, as Christians, we're like—quiet time! So true! Do the quiet time! Please don't minimize it. But being a flourishing Christian is more than a quiet time. It's not less, but it's much more than a quiet time.
Okay, Em, what is something you've learned since writing or are thinking about right now related to this topic?
Emily: I am just really deep right now in thinking about what it means that we were made in bodies—that we are “embodied” is the fancy word to use. Just the fact that, as a mom and as a believer, there's all these things in my physical body that contribute to how short my fuse is, how anxious I am, how patient I am. It's all those different things. It's not to excuse sin or areas where I need to stand on truth, but it adds that other element to it that I need to be aware of. Things like my neurological signals, my parasympathetic nervous system—look that one up.
Laura: My goodness. Some big $5 words in here.
Emily: Just being overstimulated, or, to your point, rest—things like that. Nutrition—how all of those things come into play. When I'm thinking about how to face a hard thing or I'm thinking about how to even fight sin, it's not just considering my mind, but it's also considering how I can help my body to do those things and that there are very real physical things. When my blood sugar is more stable, I can endure hard situations better with more patience. I feel like that's one way to fight sin from my physical perspective. It's like, cool. I can grow spiritually by caring for my body.
Laura: That is really cool.
Emily: I don't know. I've been nerding out on that for almost a year now, and I'm still just continually amazed at how that habit of nutrition and physical care actually helps me walk as a Christian in a more holy way, hopefully.
Laura: Here is the deal; here is the reality: God and science make so much sense. I know everybody is like, "No, God and science—they don't work together." That can be something that people say, but every time I dig into the science—
Emily: —God did that. God thought of that.
Laura: Oh, my word, I know. I'm like, “Man, Lord, look at how you made us. It explains so much.” Anyway, God and science—they make sense. For me, I think God and science, actually—This is another one. Here we go. I am continually reminded how much awe does for me. I don't know if I need it more than other people. I don't want to say that necessarily, but I think, for me, it’s like a lifeline. I could tear—I'm tearing up right now because I think about—it resets me in a way of just like, “God, you're real. You are big. You have a hand in my life. You are good.” All of those things.
When I feel small and God feels big, it reorients me. It's like hitting that reset button for me. Maybe because I struggle with doubt sometimes—I'm not sure—but getting out to the stars, going on walks, feeling small within nature is, I think, a really vital thing that I've learned for myself only in the past few years. How long can you go where you're in your house, you're in your town—you don't really get out, and you don't really experience that true, deep awe. That can go for a really long time if you're not careful.
I've really learned—okay, when I'm in a funk, when I'm not doing well—especially whenever I'm feeling a little bit uh-uh-uh with the Lord—I probably need to go see some stars. It's just needed for me. I'm working on a kid's book about awe right now, which also maybe has that topic pretty deep in my heart, but I don't know. I love that section. I love that we included it in there. I think it's not one that people often think of, but it's so vital and important.
Emily: It's good. Laura, where do you think moms are most likely to fall into error here or struggle?
Laura: It's like anything—two ditches—but I think if I were to say which ditch people fall into, it's probably the “not practicing them” ditch—the "Hey, we're going to survive. We're going to sing worship songs, and that's about it that we do."
Emily: It's so true. I do this too, where you go days or weeks without really listening to worship music and being in the Word and all these things. You're like, "Why does God feel so distant? I don't really know. Where is God?" It's like, “Well . . . ”
There are some really obvious things that we can do. A lot of times, you have to make yourself—like, “I'm going to do this. This isn't what I feel like doing.” But you know what? There are so many areas of life where we do that. I do that all the time. I'm like—I am, to your point, in a funk. I don't feel like it, but I need to get out of my sweatpants and put on hard pants and take a shower. Suddenly, things aren't so bad anymore, or I need to actually get out of my house and go for a walk outside, and I feel a thousand times better, and I have a completely different perspective.
Sometimes you have to do the thing you know you need to do, and then your feelings catch up with that. You remember—if we just went based on how we feel, we would be so backwards.
Laura: I think sometimes that we can pick the sugar of the habits and disciplines—which, to me, tends to be worship music, probably going to church on Sunday, seeing your friends—and those are like, “Ooh, those are easy for me to eat because they go down, and they're really palatable, and they're part of my fun times.” It's those harder disciplines sometimes that I think that those are the workhorse of really making sure that our relationship with God is thriving.
I think the other ditch that moms can fall into—maybe it's not a ditch, but it's just another area—a little pothole. I think moms can often get very focused on their child's spiritual growth while forgetting about their own. They're doing all these things with their kids, and they're memorizing Scripture, and they're teaching them about the Bible. I think that you can do that in a way where you're also growing because I think that you can learn so much by teaching your kids.
But you can also do it in other ways where it is like a checkbox, like we've been talking about. It's just something where you're like, “Now, I got to make sure that they're learning all of these things.” It's not really meeting your heart, or it's maybe not at a level that you need it to be.
Emily: You're going through the motions.
Laura: You're going through the motions. I think that's another area where moms need to be cautious about—that they're making their kids practice these things, but they're not really doing them themselves.
Emily: I have a quote on my phone that I want to share now.
Laura: Oh, tell me.
Emily: We’ll link it and stuff in the show notes, but it says, “Become who you should be and stay as close to your children as possible so that they can catch it.” It's just such a picture for me. It's a reminder that, again, when I want to get focused on my children and making them be a certain way, I'm like, “Wait a second. I need to grow in Christ. I need to be living these things out. I need to be modeling it.” Then I want to be in close relationship with them so I can disciple them into what I am doing—so that they can follow me as I follow Christ. Not like, “Let me teach you how to follow Christ,” and then I'm not really tending to all of these things within myself.
Laura: That's exactly what I'm trying to say.
Emily: I feel like that's just become a really helpful quote for me.
Laura: All right, Em. If a mom wanted to do one to two things right now to help her grow in and apply these things, what are some ideas?
Emily: Here's the principle I'm learning in my life: one thing at a time.
Laura: Seriously.
Emily: Sometimes, I get in these modes where suddenly I'm like, “I need to do this thing to exercise more. I need to eat healthier. I need to do this. I need to do that.” You cannot change and overhaul every area of your life at one time. It would be better to focus on one of these disciplines or one of these habits and for a week, just say, “Okay, for the next week, I'm focused on—I want to wake up and set my timer and spend ten minutes in prayer every morning for one week.” And then figure out what you do after that.
Laura: Here's what I like about this: you do it for a week because that's manageable. You're not saying, “I'm going to do it for a year,” because you're going to fall off within a month. Do it for a week, and then just do the same thing the next week and the same thing the next week. You don't have to even add very fast. I think something else that we do is we start adding really fast. It's like supplements or something where they're like, “Take it every five days to see how your body reacts.” You're like, “No, I just want to get it all done now and just take them all.”
Instead, I think we can say, “Okay, I'm going to read my Bible for a week, and we do it for another week. I'm just going to take it at a bitesize pace.” Because we can just bury ourselves pretty quick with to-dos.
Emily: Absolutely. I think, too, figure out a way that, whatever you're doing today, right now, instead of adding it on as another thing you have to do, see if there's a way you can incorporate a discipline or habit into something you were already doing that day.
Like you're driving, and your kids are in the back of the van or whatever, and usually, you're listening to kid music or whatever's going on—just take that drive that you're still in the car and listen to Scripture. Or take that time to pray or bring a note card in the car with you. Just repurpose that time for something different. We've talked about this. You're going on a walk, you're washing the dishes, you're going on your commute to and from work—use the time that you already have. “Redeem the time” is the common way to say it.
I think that that's really true that, when I start to think like, “Okay, on my walk today, how could I use this time to process with the Lord something that is really on my heart? Or could I meet with a friend on this walk?” Versus just getting in whenever my rut is. And like, “Well, I don't know—I'm just going to go listen to my regular podcast.” That's okay sometimes, but if you're wanting to grow in some of these things, I think look for that thing right now today that you could redeem and just start.
Laura: Do it literally today as you listen to this podcast.
Emily: Right now. Turn this off. [Laughter]
Laura: Also, maybe I'll close this out with a little gospel encouragement.
Emily: A little gentleness. [Laughter]
Laura: Remember, God is not annoyed with you. He doesn't speak to you like Emily just did—
Emily: Like Emily just did. [Laughter]
Laura: I love it. Sometimes we need the kick in the pants, right? Truly, remember that God is not annoyed with you. He's not eye-rolling at you for how many times you failed or you have had to restart. I think that that is really important to remember—that life ebbs and flows, and he's not surprised by that. He is thrilled anytime you pursue him. I don't remember what show you said it on, Emily, but just like that idea of—if my kid doesn't come home from college for a long time, but then one day he does, I'm going to be thrilled. I'm not going to be upset.
That's very much the idea here. You would welcome your own child into your arms any moment—gobble up any second in time you have with them. That's the way God sees this. Just know you're never too far away from him to pick back up and to restart, so don't feel shame, don't feel guilt, and do something today. We'll say that in a friendly voice. [Laughter]
