Gospel Mom 07: On Ending the Mommy Wars + Other Things (GM - C10) Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Laura Wifler: I was talking to this newly pregnant mom the other day, Em, and I was asking her all these questions about her birth plan and what classes she's taking. And it has been almost seven years since I've had a child, so I'm out of it; you're out of it. We're both pretty far away from it.
She was sharing a little bit about how much pressure she feels to have a natural birth. This is her firstborn and just how heavy that pressure is on her. I was telling her about how when I was a first-time mom, that was definitely moving towards being in vogue. It was like on the fence. I feel like it was this newer idea—to go all natural. We were laughing because we had talked about how both our moms were basically like, "Oh, back then, everyone got epidurals," and it was no big deal, and you were wild if you got a natural birth. It's just funny how things go in vogue and out of vogue and trend, and you feel pressure. Whatever's trendy, you're feeling very real pressure for.
I don't know. I think that that is just really interesting as we talk about finding unity with other moms. Even this whole show, you and I have been—or this whole mini-series, I should say—you and I have been talking a lot about how to find freedom in making your own decisions as a mom. But something that's interesting, sort of on the flip side of that, is the reality that also the gospel compels us at times that, even though we have freedom in an area, sometimes we actually choose not to use it in order to be more loving.
Emily Jensen: As we were working through this book and thinking through all the different components of how to walk as a gospel mom, we did all this work, like you said, around understanding your unique circumstances and understanding the motherhood God gave you and being content with what is and not what-if, and then looking at your personal conscience and trying to align your heart with what's right in God's Word, and then really digging into and understanding your why.
You get all these pieces of the puzzle together and you're like, "Okay, I'm at a spot where I feel like I'm more able, knowing—I'm knowing the Word of God; I'm thinking through creation, fall, redemption, consummation; I'm walking with the Lord and my spiritual disciplines and habits; and I'm evaluating all these things." Guess what? We don't live in a silo. We live in a world with a bunch of other moms, and we have friends that are going to do different things, and we have sisters in Christ at church who are going to do different things. What we are doing is not going to match what our influencer did, or we're going to make our mom unhappy, or whatever all those things are.
We felt like it was really important to talk about your decision in the context of other moms and knowing that the decisions that we make are not isolated to us. They are in the sense that, yes, we're responsible before the Lord for the things that we do. I'm not responsible for what Laura does; she's not responsible for what I do. At the same time, what we each do affects one another and we have to figure out how to still live in relationship with one another in a loving, peaceful way as we make different decisions in these gray areas.
Laura: Yes, and this can happen in basically any area of motherhood, small or large. Things like: if you work outside the home for income-producing work, how you spend your time when you're working inside the home, the stroller you buy, how you feed your middle schooler, what activities you decide to get your kid in, where you go to church, how you exercise, TV, media, books—all the things. Those are just like scratching the surface of all the examples of the way that this can come into play.
I think we can look at this from the perspective even of our own selves, in the sense that anytime we see somebody who is maybe a trusted friend that we love or a role model in our life or somebody online that's a big influencer or somebody coming out that's a celebrated psychologist saying, "This is the new way to raise your children," we start questioning our own choices. We start to say, "Well, I thought I was doing the right thing and I was confident, but should I change?" In other situations, we may even be thinking to ourselves, "Okay, so what do I do if I think a mom is making the wrong choice and how do I tell her? What do I hold back? Should I even let it go? Because it seems pretty important.”
I think that those are some of the questions that we start to wrestle with as we see different people making different choices, yet we know that being gospel moms means that we are not loyal to a specific lifestyle choice. We're not loyal to a different parenting style, and we can do things differently and be faithful. This is where it all culminates. This is what Emily is saying—it all culminates. Just because we have freedom in an area as we figure out ourselves, doesn't mean that we always get to exercise it.
Emily: Yes. It seems like it's both about the choices that we make and knowing that those are going to be unique and individual, but it's also about how we interact with others around that choice—how we make them feel about their choices. If we are being hospitable to others—if we're being considerate of others.
I think one common example of this is talked about a lot in Christianity—alcohol. It seems like there are all different views on that, and you may feel, or one person may feel, all the freedom to consume alcohol, and it's not a big deal. It's not something that they wrestle with. It's not a temptation. It's not a sin struggle. They're not doing it in drunkenness.
They're a wine consumer, and they enjoy certain things, but they also are around people who may struggle with that, and it may be something that it's not wise to partake in certain group situations. The person who feels freedom with alcohol has to be considerate of their brothers and sisters in Christ and others around them who either don't agree with that at all and think that's wrong and it would be a violation of their conscience to come to a party and feel like there's a bunch of alcohol around, and they ought to be considerate of the person who's struggling with that. There's all these different things.
We also had this with medical conversations, and there are so many heated emotions around that of like, "Are you into traditional medicine, or are you into functional medicine or into holistic medicine?" There's a lot of emotions when we start talking about kids, safety, and what's right and what's wrong. Are we able to have those conversations with other believers in a way that is peaceable, is wise, isn't condescending? I don't know. There's so many facets to it.
Laura: I think what's interesting in both of those examples is—in one example with the alcohol, you may be abstaining from alcohol and so you are not exercising your freedom to drink because your conscience is tuned in on that and it's not a sin struggle for you. There's a lot of things at play that make drinking okay for you in moderation, but you are choosing to not do an action. But then with medical conversations, it's like—this is really only affecting your child or you, but there, you may be altering how you speak about things. You may be altering your desire to convince people of being enlightened of a better way of medical.
I think that's what's really interesting about the Christian freedom conversation—that sometimes it means you don't literally do something that you're free to do. Other times, it might mean that you speak differently about something. Maybe with a mom who is feeling great—you're into holistic medicine—and there's a mom that's taking her kid to a pediatrician and she got medication—she feels great about it—and you want to tell her and convince her and be like, "Oh, there's this other way to do it."
I think it's great for you to share once or twice, but read the room. If that mom is like, "Oh, I'm eager and I'm interested," then maybe you can continue that conversation. If that mom suddenly seems shut down or she's argumentative or whatever, then that might be a sign of like, "Oh, okay, I can just keep this to myself," in order to preserve unity and to love other moms. I think that that's where—you and I have talked about how even with certain friends, there are just sometimes topics that we're like, "Hey, those aren't topics that we talk about." [Laughter]
Emily: Yes. That's practical. That's getting practical. I think sometimes too, this can happen—like let's say you're pregnant and you have a friend who just had a miscarriage. It's like, again, knowing you are free to celebrate your pregnancy—you are free to be happy about that. You're free to talk to her about that, but you're going to read the situation and ask God's wisdom. There might be things around that mom that you're like, "I'm going to refrain from talking about this in certain ways around her in order to love her well in this situation."
It could also be—I think one thing we're facing right now in our season of life is tech and devices and all the things. Moms are all over the board with that. All over the board with whether or not this movie is okay or not okay.
Laura: They really are.
Emily: Everyone has their own like, "Scary things don't bother me, but romance plots bother me." It's all over the board, even among believing moms. One thing I've taken to do is, if we have a kid over at our house and we're like, "Oh, we want to put something on," I always text the mom before and I don't assume. I'm like, "It's zero pressure. It is totally okay to say”—I want to make sure that this is fine and not assume because it is fine. If she's like, "For whatever reason, I don't like that thing," great. That doesn't bother me. Anyway, I think we have to be really considerate with other moms of not assuming, "This is okay," because that might violate their conscience. That might be something they're not comfortable doing.
Laura: I think the tricky thing in there is that sometimes it's going to feel really sacrificial. Maybe like the TV media. It feels sacrificial for your kids because they can't watch the show that they wanted to watch or whatever. They're learning what it looks like to love other people well. Or for something like when you were talking about the pregnancy versus someone who has a miscarriage, you may feel like, "Oh, when I'm around her, I don't get to have the pregnancy feels and to get to say all the things I want to say. This is my very best friend and she's not excited for me and that just hurts so much.”
I hear this from so many people who have people on each side of the fertility conversation where it's just very painful for both parties because one party needs one thing and the other needs something else. If you are in that situation where you feel more freedom—I even have a friend who is struggling with infertility and yet joyfully celebrates the other women. It might be hard, but she also knows—she goes the other way and she's like, "No, but I know this is special for them. I still want to be there." Then when it's too hard, it's too hard. Offering grace for those things—man, can you imagine a world where everyone was doing that? Everyone was really considering each other’s—
Emily: Yes, thinking about others. Treating others the way they want to be treated.
Laura: What a wonderful world that would be.
Emily: It's been written down somewhere that there's this really good principle for life that if we would all just do this. That's what's interesting is, when you go to Scripture, that's really what God calls us to. Each person be responsible for loving others well and thinking about what would help them and what would build them up. If we were all doing that, it'd be a different place.
Laura: World peace.
Emily: World peace. [Laughter] We went through—in this chapter in the book, we actually just went through a portion of Scripture—1 Corinthians 10:22-33—because it's a passage where Paul talks about what it means to live in unity with and in consideration towards other believers who have differing convictions. There were a lot of principles that we explored, but we'll walk through some of them here.
One of them we've already been talking about is that we ought to seek to build other moms up in their faith. Again, we aren't thinking, “I'm a family on an island and whatever we do is just only about us,” but we're recognizing that our lives impact others and that our choices can be a witness for the gospel. We are making choices that are considering how we are being a witness for the gospel.
Laura: Yes. The other thing is that we need to seek the good of our neighbors and not just our own good. That really means that we don't have to get our opinion validated every time or always get our way or do the things that we want to do. We want to be gentle and open with other moms who do things differently.
Along with that, we want to try not to give offense. We don't want to be people that are constantly thinking about, "Hey, it's my way or the highway,” or “How can I enlighten them or educate them?" The only thing that's worth that is the gospel. There are so many other hills that are not worth dying on, and we need to give those things up.
Emily: Then, kind of the mic-drop one is: whatever you do, do all things to the glory of God. That is where that famous, popular verse comes into play—that the things that we do are not ultimately for our own gain or for our own comfort or because of selfish motives or because this is just what would make me happy. The things that we do should ultimately be about pointing back to the Lord and be in step with our kingdom purpose. We are supposed to always be having that in view with a thankful heart and saying, "Thank you, God, for what you're doing in my life," and rejoicing in that. Those are just some of the principles that we walk through. Let's dig into more.
What is your favorite part of this chapter, Laura?
Laura: I like the quote that we put in: “Sometimes we need the reminder that we don't have to be best friends with everyone.” [Laughter]
Emily: Woo.
Laura: I know. I think that that was written specifically for me, by me, probably, or by us. I love that we took time to address this because it's been a real hard one for me to learn. I think I'm an includer naturally. I'm somebody who thinks, "Hey, if someone's in my circles, I should really go deep with them. I should be vulnerable. I should invite them to everything." And I’m definitely a lot better than I used to be. But I think that sometimes there are relationships where the two of you are like oil and water. It is okay that there's some distance in a relationship. It is okay that boundaries are drawn and that it's done in a loving manner.
Honestly, sometimes it's the most loving thing you can do. Sometimes that comes from a direct verbal conversation where you're having to be honest about where you're at. Sometimes it just can naturally happen. I think for me, that's one of the things that I've had to learn as well—that it is okay to naturally let friendships go and not force something that is hard. We've got shows on friendship where I think we've talked about this a lot more deeply and are more helpful than this little blurb I can give right now. I really appreciate that reminder.
Emily: I liked—we had this quote in there. It says, "Many of us go about our days wondering what would be the easiest thing to do or even what would be the most advantageous for our career, reputation, social media feed, bank account, and family, but we give little thought to how we can try to please and serve others outside of our family and outside of ourselves. Few of us ponder what it looks like to make choices in ways that don't just consider ourselves but consider the impact on the church, our Christian witness, or even those who don't yet believe in our community.”
I don't know. I just feel like this is so convicting because we are super busy and feel like, “We're a family of seven; we have a lot going on.” It's a lot sometimes to just make our own decisions and care about our own life and get our own laundry done and get our own dinner on the table and all of those different things. It is so easy for me to think only in what's good for our immediate family and not be thinking about how we are being a blessing and being outward-focused towards others and how our decisions might be affecting other people around us.
I don't know. I just think that that concept is one that I need to be reminded of often, even just to reach out to others and to make sure that the decisions that we're making are including gospel opportunities to witness and are including service and are including things that aren't just about our immediate family.
Laura: Okay. What's something you've learned since writing or are thinking about right now related to the topic?
Emily: You and I have been talking about this as friends a little bit, but I think I have a value on autonomy and moms being able to make different choices without being judged or getting all up in arms about it. I can get upset and feel like, "I don't understand. I left you alone. I didn't worry you about your choice. I didn't make you feel guilty. Why are you drawing this dogmatic line and questioning my motives and all of that?"
I think that it's hard for me because I think what I'm learning is to be more compassionate. Because when someone feels—this is like not my personality—but when someone feels deeply convinced and convicted that they have found the truth and that their way really is the best way or the right way or the research that they found is the most true thing in the world, they feel maybe a sense of like they are loving me by telling me what they believe is the truth. I may not agree with them that that's the truth. [Laughter] That can be just kind of an agree-to-disagree thing. But I've really had to work on having—trying to believe the best of where they're coming from, of like—they actually are doing something that they think is loving towards me. They're not just coming for me and my choices.
I think I'm just learning that there's a category where we actually don't agree on what is right and wrong. We actually don't agree on what—
Laura: —Even though you're both believers.
Emily: Even though we're both believers, we don't agree on the big T truth of this aspect. We land in different areas. I have to keep that context and that perspective when I come to the relationship, because otherwise, I get very emotionally torn up and it feels very personal to me, versus recognizing like, "No, this is going to happen in the Christian world." That's why there's denominations. That's why people go to all different churches and whatever, because you literally sometimes cannot worship in the same place if you hold different beliefs about things. That's going to be true with our friends sometimes.
That's hard, but yet you can still be kind to one another. You can still have a fun conversation. You can still hang out. You almost have to keep those—I had to keep those categories separate in my mind. That make sense?
Laura: Yes. I think your and my personalities—this is why Risen Motherhood started—a little bit more lean towards that "freedom side," and we don't get riled up about many things, both you and I. I think that's good to remind yourself of—compassion for the people who maybe feel more strongly like they've found the right way—and just to recognize that, yes, they're doing what they believe is most loving in this situation. It doesn't mean you have to agree or change, but you sort of endure.
Next thing for me, on a different note. I think that something that I'm thinking about right now on this topic is that—I find that if I am disinterested in a topic or I don't agree with something—so like what you were saying—that it can be very exhausting to still be kind. And it can be tiring to ask questions or sort of respond in the way that I think this person is hoping that I'm responding or expecting me to respond. I've almost thought about how—yes, this is a cost to me to engage with them on this topic, but perhaps it's a way that I can love them, that they can feel like, "Oh, I've—"
I don't know. I think people can be harder to talk to sometimes. I always often make it a little bit of a game, of like, "Okay, how many questions can I ask them before they ask me one back?" It is actually fun to sort of say, "Okay, I'm going to try to apply my mind toward this topic and be curious and get excited”—not in a disingenuous way, but instead, something that is exciting is finding a way to do it genuinely and getting excited.
Even if I'm never going to use the information they're sharing—I'm never going to think about it again after I leave. I'm never going to come over to their side on stuff. It's like, "Oh, I want to be curious about their life and this thing that they're really into." Even though I don't share the value system, I think that it's good to remember that in Christian unity, it's not about you anyway. You can sit and you can ask them questions—rack your brain for new things to discuss. I think, oftentimes, they can walk away feeling really loved. Even though it's a cost to me—even though I walk away not feeling very loved—but I trust the Lord to sustain.
Emily: That's so nice. [Laughter] It's good.
Laura: It's my includer personality.
Emily: All right. Where do you think moms are most likely to fall into error here?
Laura: Just not auditing or vetting their voice, right? We're programmed to share a good thing. We've talked about this already on this mini-series that that is just the way God made us, which is why we want to share the gospel—the good news there. I think that it's genuinely hard to slow down and think before we speak or to think before we act. It's a continual theme throughout our mini-series: so often, we're just doing what we've always done. We're not thinking deeply about it. It's self-centered. What's fun about Gospel Mom, the book, is that the majority of the book is all about you. It's fun to like walk through that. It's all about yourself.
Then we get to this part, which is sort of where the rubber meets the road. And can you take your eyes off yourself and look towards other people? I think that that just is—it may be harder than even working through your personal conscience. It may be harder than even working through your unique circumstances and finding errors and biases from the way you were raised. This part is genuinely hard because we don't control the other side.
Emily: Yes, this part is really hard. I think it's evident in the way that we talk about one another. I honestly feel like a big error here is gossip and harsh words. This especially comes out on social media, but honestly, we do it in conversation with moms that we agree with and side with them on everything. Real quick, we can make broad-brushed, slanderous, un-nuanced, mean—say mean things about groups, like working moms or moms who are not crunchy. Maybe you're crunchy or whatever. And there’s stereotypes or kind of getting into a group and being like, "Oh, I'm part of a group that says I'm never, ever doing this, or moms should always do this."
We feel this comfort in that and there's this sense of a quick hit of security. I don't know what it is, but there's a thing that we feel that like, "I'm not into that group. I'm not like them." I just think we slander people—
Laura: I think we do.
Emily: —and we are not careful with our words and we are not self-controlled. Honestly, it creates so much hurt. I feel like one question to ask is like, “Are you building up other moms in the church at large?” Maybe you're not hurting a specific mom. Sometimes we're like, "Oh, as long as I'm not talking about a specific person who I know in real life, then it's not wrong." But it's also hurting the church if you're talking about choices or categories of moms in a really harsh, broad-brush, not careful, not loving way. It's important—are we contributing to the conversation in a productive way?
You can even do that by being devil's advocate. When your friends get around and they're all hating on that other group of moms that are not making as good of choices as you, you can try to bring in some compassion like, "Yes, but sometimes I think about moms who might be in this type of situation. I actually had a friend one time who did do it this other way, and I was just really amazed at how she was faithful in that situation." Try to be the person who sticks up for that and add some compassion to the conversation.
Laura: You would want someone to do that for you.
Emily: Yes.
If a mom wanted to do one to two things right now to help her grow in unity with other moms, what would she do?
Laura: I would start by two little phrases just ringing in your ears. One is “keep short accounts,” and the second is “believe the best.” I know we harp on this all the time, but I think that would be world peace. That would be—if we all did that for one another, believing the best that "Hey, that mom is trying her hardest. She's speaking out of the best she knows right now. The Lord's going to lead her. I trust God to guide her."
And short accounts—like "Hey, I'm going to forgive that weird thing that person said.” Or “That person said some strange things, or something that was prideful sounding or accidentally offensive or painful—they may not have realized it in the moment.” But either way, you can forgive that. I know that I would want someone to do that for me. And how often I am on the wrong side of—like, in the moment, I'm trying to be holy—I'm trying to be a Christian, and I just said something weird, or I wasn't thoughtful, or I didn't have eyes to see, or I didn't have ears to hear. It happens to me all the time. I'm definitely a person that can go back and replay conversations a million times over and think of all the things I would have done better. I think that the kindness that we would like to see extended to us, we can extend to others.
I know that I've probably shared this on the show before, but there was this one time that I was late to a meeting. Emily, were you with me on that meeting?
Emily: I have no idea.
Laura: I haven't even told you what meeting it is, sorry.
Emily: I've forgotten. [Laughter]
Laura: It was memorable. I was late to a meeting, and I was like, "Oh, I'm so sorry I'm late." The woman who I was getting on to meet with—she said, "I am the greater debtor. Grace is all I've got." I know it sounds silly when we're talking about being late to a meeting, but there was just an element in that where I was like, "I'm pocketing that phrase because that is me." I am the greater debtor in every situation, and I can offer grace. I don't want to be like the unforgiving master. As I deal with other moms and weird communication issues or weird decisions that I just do not get, I think that that can be the thing that rings in our minds: "I'm the greater debtor. Grace is all I've got."
Emily: I feel like if there's one—there's a lot of legacies that I hope the Lord will allow us to leave through Risen Motherhood, but I really, really hope one of them is that moms are kinder to each other and are more—have that grace-based mindset and are aware of how the gospel has changed us and how we didn't deserve anything that we have; how we didn't earn anything; how on our own, we're not self-controlled. We're not patient. We're not loving. We wouldn't have made wise choices. Any wise choice that we've made is because that was Christ in us at work.
If we all walked around with that mindset and that heart and that type of humility, social media would look different.
Laura: Totally.
Emily: Our church communities would look different. We don't have to contribute to the tribalism and the polarization and the meanness and the insults that are thrown and the satire and all the things that happen online. We don't have to contribute to that. Gospel moms can be humble and can be kind and can be gracious. I would just love to see like—whatever generation it was that started the mommy wars, I want our generation to end it.
