Gospel Mom 08: On Refusing to Quit + Other Things (GM-C11) Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Emily Jensen: Welcome back to another episode of Risen Motherhood. I'm Emily Jensen. I'll be joined by my co-host, Laura Wifler, in just a minute. Today is our very last show of the Gospel Mom series as we talk through what kind of moms we want to be. This is from chapter 11 of the book. If you missed any of the shows, we hope you'll go back and listen in because even if you didn't buy the book, all of the information and the essential principles are still there on our show.
It's also been so much fun to see you all sharing pictures of Gospel Mom, the book, in your homes. Keep sharing what you're learning with us. Remember, it's not too late to grab your copy at the link in the show notes. We're going to keep the good book news coming because our final book in what we're calling the Risen Motherhood Legacy Collection releases March 4, 2025. It's called A Million Tiny Moments, and it's a collection of our writings over the years as we've processed the gospel and motherhood through the little years.
While Gospel Mom is like the deep-dive resource for exploring how God has wired you for your motherhood and how to walk with him in all types of different situations, A Million Tiny Moments is the quick gospel pick-me-up you need when you don't have all the time in the world to go deep. It is designed to have a reference book-like feel and be something that you could chew a little bit on each day or read through in one setting.
Think of the books like this. Gospel Mom goes the deepest, and it's the most studious. Then we have our first book—the green one—Risen Motherhood. That's more storytelling-based and example-based about our journey with the gospel and motherhood. Then, the most easy-to-read and digest book is A Million Tiny Moments, where—you could give that to any mom that's at any level spiritually. It's a quick, easy book to read that meets a lot of those felt needs in motherhood.
These three books make up what we're calling the Legacy Collection for Risen Motherhood. We're so thankful we were able to create them before we sunset in April. Speaking of sunset, mark your calendar for Saturday, April 5, 2025. Before Risen Motherhood closes its doors, we're going out with a huge party. We'll be streaming it all live from Fort Worth, Texas. We'd love it if you grab your mom pals and join us via simulcast for a time of reflection on all that God has done through the ministry of Risen Motherhood. Tickets are free. You just need to register. You can find all the links to the books and the show in our show notes or head to risenmotherhood.com. Let's get to the show.
Laura Wifler: So, Em, this one time, I was working on a project, and it didn't do very well is the honest truth. It was one of those things that really didn't add up either. If you looked at it objectively on paper, it was like, “Hey, all of this—it actually should have done really well. You did all the right things.” There were really incredible, big things that you didn't even ask for. Those happened, and it was just really cool. Then, in the end, the project didn't turn out very well, and it didn't go very far.
I was talking with some of the people who were collaborating with me on the project, and they were very much like, "It's just one of those things. Sometimes we don't know why this happens, and that's okay." I was like, "Okay, but also not okay." It was like, "I'm not okay with this." I really felt like I wanted to get to the bottom of it.
I was chatting with a friend one day and telling her the same story I'm telling you right now. She was like, "Laura, God calls us to the work. He doesn't call us to the results." I was like—it was huge. It was this moment for me that I was like, "Yes, God asked me to be faithful in doing the work." A lot of really great things happened within the work. The results—God never promised that I would have the big splashy results of the work or that they would add up or make sense to me. That was such a good reminder for me of really what all of life is about.
Emily: Yes. Oh, boy. I feel like there's definitely some biblical passages that remind me of that principle. Even thinking in Proverbs 4:25-27, where it says, "Let your eyes look straight ahead; fix your gaze directly before you. Give careful thought to the paths for your feet and be steadfast in all your ways." That is a verse that's primarily talking about the work that we're doing and the direction that we're going, not about the destination. It's about, hey, whatever path you're on, don't turn to the right or to the left. Keep your foot from evil.
Then, in Hebrews 12:1-3, it's that famous passage of "We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, so let us lay aside every weight and sin, which cling so closely to us, and let us run with endurance the race set before us, looking to Jesus." Again, that idea that we're keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus. We are taking one step at a time. We're doing the things that God has called us to do. What's at the end of that journey? Ultimately, it's Christ. It's being unified with him.
We aren't promised in this life really specific outcomes or that our children turn out a certain way or that we wouldn't have to struggle with certain things. I just continue to be amazed as I get further and further into life, how much the fall really is real and how wide sweeping it actually is. Even in the journey of Risen Motherhood and trying to be gospel-centered, there's still so many things that I'm like, "Oh, I didn't think I'd have to deal with that." Those things are very real. That's why we have to keep our hope fixed on Jesus and not on the results.
Laura: Yes. I think it's a good reminder that gospel growth is not linear. I think, as we have gone through this whole mini-series, and we've been talking about our book Gospel Mom and talking about like, "Hey, here's how to make decisions and here's how to know God's will for your life and all this stuff"—the reality is, you're still going to come back sometimes and be like, "I'm still confused. I have all the tools at my disposal and I still feel confused. Or this just feels too complex to figure out."
Maybe at times—I know it's happened for me—it feels boring. I think we have to get used to this idea of one step forward, two steps back. One day, light bulbs are going off, and you're energized, and you are excited about understanding gospel motherhood and understanding how Scripture applies to your life. You're feeling all this clarity and excitement and seeing God's fingerprints and seeing fruit in your family. Then the next day, you're out with a friend having coffee and she is looking for advice from you. You're just like, "I don't know. Nothing is coming to mind."
Emily: I think I did that to you yesterday. I was like, "I have nothing wise to share."
Laura: You did. You are encouraging to me.
Emily: It’s like, I love you and I'm here with you, but I don't have any great words of wisdom.
Laura: Yes. When someone's going through hard stuff and on the spot, and it's like—you can know the Bible front to back, but there are times where there are no words. I think that that is like—or your kids are embarrassing you. Or maybe you say something, and you offer advice, and then you get in the car and you're like, "I don't think that actually was true." I’ve had that moment where I'm like, “I think I said something untrue there.”
Emily: Oh, man. I know. It is hard because those situations happen. I will still have moments where, again, something embarrassing will happen or someone will disagree with your decision or sort of push back on you in a conversation, and you're like, "I don't really know what to do." I still have to think really hard. I have to sort of give myself enough time, whether it's on a walk or it's in the car. And it's like, "Okay, Mommy's going to turn on music. Don't talk." I have to really think hard. What does it look like to trust the Lord in this? What things can I anchor myself to and my hope to in the midst of this situation that feels very confusing and very stressful? You and I still even face that.
The other thing I have to sort of caution myself about sometimes is to think that walking in grace isn't working, because the results, even though we've already said, are not promised to us in a really specific way. There is fruit. God is doing something and, oftentimes, we just don't see it in the moment because we don't have the context or the perspective of time yet.
Something that sometimes encourages me—when I feel like, "Ah, I don't know if I'm making progress with this,” or “Are my decisions more and more aligning with God's Word? Am I being more and more patient? Am I investing more and more in these spiritual disciplines? Are those things really happening?”—is to look back and see maybe where I was at when the kids were young or to see—can I think of specific situations where I opted to apply the gospel and I made steps forward, even though it felt like it wasn't doing anything? Now, in hindsight, I can see how much fruit that had in our lives. I feel like, with fruit, you’ve got to look backwards, not at the present.
Laura: Yes. I think this is where community comes in, right? You and I still have to help each other figure out how the gospel applies. We offer, I think, a nice counterbalance to each other because you and I typically see different elements and different sides. I think, too, your friends can say, "Oh, I've seen fruit and growth in you. I've seen you change," or "Hey, here's how to correct that ideal, or here's how to build on that idea."
I think that those are all big pieces to the puzzle as we sort of learn to apply the gospel to our lives. We are doing that in community with other moms, and you're not just trying to do it all by yourself. You and I were long distance when we started this. You might have a friend who's thinking the same way, but they live ten hours away. You're doing it over the phone. It doesn't necessarily have to mean like, "Hey, it's my neighbor next door." Find another mom who is desiring to think and grow in this way. Of course, in-person relationships are incredible, but sometimes you might have to be like, "Hey, I'm okay that this is my friend who I'm talking on Voxer with all the time."
Emily: Yes, totally. I think as we wrap up talking about gospel motherhood and what’s this final thing we want you to take away—it's really to persevere, right? To keep going—to not get stuck in guilt and feeling like, "Oh, man, if I got some stuff wrong or maybe I haven't been in the Word as much as I wanted to, or maybe I did make a decision that was motivated by the wrong desires or whatever." That's all normal. It's part of how we grow.
We're not doing these things to earn salvation or to be very impressive to other people. This is our genuine walk with our Savior because we want to grow closer with him. We want to know him. We want to share his love with others. It's not going to be perfect, but if you are following Christ and you're filled with the Spirit, he is at work with you and at work in you. The best thing you can do whenever you notice, "Oh, I haven't really been thinking about the Lord much lately," is just to start again. You can always start again from wherever you're at.
Laura: Yes. It's the whole new-morning-mercies thing. I think as we're talking about a little bit of like, "Hey, what happens whenever you get it wrong or you mess up?"—that's going to happen, even with a book next to you like Gospel Mom—pray and ask God about it, right? Ask him to help you continue to grow. Like Em said, if you're in earnest—if you're trying to be faithful—God is going to honor that. He knows you're going to make mistakes. He knows you're a sinner. It's not a surprise to him. He knows that some of those will just be earnest errors and some of them will be—we’re just really off-base and it’s true sin.
Then I think, too, not being afraid that, if you do need to correct something—like maybe you are offering advice to a friend or you are trying to be there for them when things are hard—never be afraid to come back and say, "Hey, I said this. I think that how I would say it in a more true way is this"—just letting them know. Make that correction. I know that I have had to do that multiple times, where I'm like, "Hey, I said something and I shouldn't have said it, or that was a little misguided," or whatever. I got a big mouth, so I probably got to do it more than most people.
Then lastly, don't let fear of failure stop you from gospel growth as you have to make some corrections or as you have to change or you see some of those errors. Honestly, if we see places where we mess up, that's a gift of grace from the Spirit, right? That we even have eyes to see where we can grow and improve. I think just keep going—keep practicing. You only will get better the more that you try.
Emily: Yes. Prayer is obviously a huge component of this as well—praying that God would be working in your heart to make you more like him, to be able to use greater and greater wisdom, and to be able to have holiness in your daily actions.
In church, actually, we have been going through a sermon series on 1 John, and this verse really stood out to me. It's one of those that I'm like, "I know I've read this before, but how did I miss this?" In 1 John—I don't know what chapter now—but verses 14 through 15. I don't have it in my notes. It says, "This is the confidence we have before him; If we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears whatever we ask, we know that we have what we have asked of him" [1 John 5:14-15]. I'm like—this is a crazy promise. This is amazing.
It's literally like—if we ask according to God's will, essentially, the answer is yes. Now, that yes may be given in heaven. It may not be something specific and immediate, but if we're praying for God to increase the fruit of the Spirit in us—when we are asking for God to help us love others better or we're asking to grow in wisdom—his answer to that is yes. That's just so encouraging to me to know that those prayers are not in vain, and they're not unanswered. Okay, Laura, what was your favorite part of this final chapter?
Laura: Fun fact, we almost titled the book Gospel Mom What Kind of Moms? Turns out, though, that's—
Emily: —We had a lot of different titles.
Laura: We did. We had a lot of titles.
Emily: That was a close second.
Laura: Yes. There was another book that was really popular that had a really similar title, so we decided to change it. We also wanted it to be a little bit closer to Risen Motherhood. Gospel Mom feels very related—very much book two-esque. We were able to use that title in the chapter. This is the title of this chapter. Really, it's the heartbeat of the book. It's this question: “What kind of moms are we going to be?” We're going to be gospel moms.
Honestly, I love the phrase—what kind of mom am I going to be? That, to me, is such an essential question for every mom to be asking. Often, our immediate answer—if we're just being really honest about our shallow answers—it's something like, "Oh, I'm going to be the fit mom,” or “I want to be the pretty mom,” or “I want to be the talented mom." Maybe even you have deeper definitions, but in general, we're pretty surface-y and shallow about it.
But underneath all of that, the question for us as Christian moms is: who do we want to be? We know the right answer. I think truly, when your heart is God's, this is what you want. You want to be a mom that honors and loves God with all her heart. This is my battle cry, and this is our battle cry. Yours and mine. And we hope for the whole Risen Motherhood community that everyone is saying—more than all of these other surfacy things—even really good things like, "I want to be an involved mom,” or “I want to be a positive mom or a kind mom." Those are great. Even beyond that, deep down, we want to be a gospel mom. I love that we covered that in this chapter—well, this whole book, but we were really able to put that into this last chapter and end it on what I felt like was more of a rah-rah note of like, "Let's together be gospel moms."
Emily: Yes. I really also appreciated just the reiteration. I think the quote is: “The gospel is so simple and beautiful that, in many ways, it's not complicated. Just live by the Word of God and follow him in faith. Yet we also know that when the rubber meets the road, living the gospel can feel vague and complex.” I just think that speaks to the spectrum, too, of moms that are reading—that are listening.
I think there are ditches sometimes in this conversation. For some of us, we make following God really too complicated. We're overthinking it and heaping lots of guilt on ourselves and feeling like, "Oh, I'm walking on eggshells around God. If I get it a little bit wrong here, or I get the wrong book for my kids, or I'm not doing the exact right quiet time, or I miss church on Sunday" or whatever—we are feeling like our whole salvation is resting on this really specific, high-expectation version of Christian motherhood. To those moms, they need to hear: it's simple; just follow God and walk by faith and read the Word. Don't overcomplicate it.
Then, on this other side, there are moms who maybe aren't thinking about these things at all. They're just going, "It's simple, whatev—" and maybe haven't thought deeply about what resources they're giving their kids. They haven't thought deeply about how to walk with the Lord. They haven't invested in their prayer lives, and that's okay. You’ve got to meet everyone where they're at, but, yes, we are trying to give more tools and to say, "Yes, think about this a little harder—a little bit more deeply." It's both, and sometimes we're in a different place in our motherhood journey. Sometimes we're needing to be reminded to just chill out. Sometimes we're needing to be reminded, "No, pursue this. This is really important."
Laura: What's something, Em, you've learned since writing or you're thinking about right now related to the topic?
Emily: Right now—I'm always working through things in my life. I just have this thought that—it's interesting to go, okay, what we want in life is continuity between who we are and what we worship on earth and then heaven—that our song and our worship would just extend. It wouldn't be like, "Hey, in this life, we're worshiping other things." Then, suddenly, we die and are resurrected, and now we're all about Christ. I think the point is that we're all about Christ now, and that that song of our hearts just continues on and on and on.
Yes, there's going to be differences. We are not perfect here on earth and things will be totally different. I've just been really challenged to think that right here, now on earth, my life should be all about Christ. Not primarily about sports teams and what vacation we're taking and how cute everyone is dressed for their school pictures. Then in heaven, it will be all about spiritual things.
Right now, the weighty spiritual things should trickle down into those mundane decisions. I just keep thinking about how much I want to have a deep commitment to Jesus and to seek first the kingdom now and know that that's the heartbeat I'm going to have for eternity and not think that that heartbeat starts whenever I'm raised from the dead.
Laura: Yes. It's that—in the Lord's Prayer of “your kingdom on earth as it is in heaven”—that line that Jesus charges us to pray is—it's not waiting for heaven. It's being heavenly right now.
Emily: Yes. What about you?
Laura: I don't know how much this perfectly relates to the chapter, but I think it does just in the terms of continual growth as a believer. I've started asking my friends, “What is dazzling or inspiring you spiritually or theologically about God right now?” I think in the past six to twelve months—you and I have talked about this, Emily—there can be a disenchantment that starts to happen with Christendom, not necessarily deconstruction or something—which is a different type of thing—but sort of this like, “Hey, I've just sort of—"
Emily: I've heard it all.
Laura: Yes. I've heard it all. I've lost some of that awe and wonder about God. And are you still learning and growing? Sure. It doesn't necessarily feel like there's this like—you and I are both the type of person that's like—we get really into something, or we hear something fascinating and we're like, "Now, I'm going to research it to the end of the earth and back."
Emily: Then our next podcast series is going to be about that. Exactly.
Laura: Yes, exactly. I think that that has made some things dull and dry for me lately. My jaw just hasn't dropped about God lately. That's not to say that we won't go through things like that. We all know that we will. I think one of the things that has been fun is that as I crowdsourced this question and asked people, I've had a couple of topics that I'm like, "Ooh, I want to explore that. I want to learn about that." Some of the things I'm like, "Oh, yes, totally."
I remember going through that whole—let's talk about theophanies or let's talk about different theological things. I'm like, "Oh, I remember doing that." But there have also been some new things and fresh things. It's been fun to ask not only to hear their contagious joy and how is God is stimulating their brain, but also to give me some ideas. I don't know—I guess I would say asking people, “How is God impressive to you lately or what is fascinating you spiritually right now?” I think that is a really fun conversation.
Emily: Yes. Love it.
Laura: Okay. Em, where do you think moms are most likely to fall in error here or to struggle?
Emily: I think that there's so many times in life where we want there to be a formula or a system that is foolproof and good enough to fix us so that we don't have to care or change what we love. This system is going to do the work for us. If I can just follow this eating plan or I can just follow this workout plan or I can follow this homeschool curriculum or I can follow this influencer’s stuff and just to buy all their stuff, my house will look like that.
Have you ever seen those videos on Instagram? The reels where people do a room refresh, and they clean everything, and they've got all these little products and these tiny things, and they click and spray.
Laura: I don't think I do.
Emily: Instagram thinks I want to watch this.
Laura: I was thinking about those noise videos where it's like ASMR or whatever that's supposed to be calming.
Emily: Well, kind of. It's just this sense of like, “If I had all those little products, think about how clean my room would be. I need that mop.”
Laura: Yes, I get that.
Emily: I need that spray. There is some weird—I don't even know, but there's probably a special iron for your linens and all these different things. There's sort of this sense that, if I could just have all that stuff, my problem of having dirty clothes on the floor and the bed unmade would be gone. I think that there can be a temptation with what we've laid out in Gospel Mom—all that we've talked about in Risen Motherhood even over the years—to sort of feel like, "Oh, another formula. I found it." It can sort of feel like, "Oh, if I could just implement this, then things are going to be so, so, so much easier."
I don't want to sound discouraging when I say we've been doing this for years and years and years now. And I love the Lord more, and I'm walking with him hopefully in greater wisdom. I think there's been a lot of fruit, but I don't know that my life is so much easier or simpler. Or I think—
Laura: My life is way more complicated than when we started Risen Motherhood. I'm sorry.
Emily: More suffering. More hardship.
Laura: Oh, yes. It's way harder.
Emily: I don't know. I guess I just would say, one, a system won't do the work for you. You still have to want to follow God for yourself. You have to deeply desire to orient your life around him. This system won't do that for you.
Laura: It's interesting because I would almost like—my immediate tendency is to say women will fall in error by not being into the system enough.
Emily: Yes. There you go. Let's get both sides.
Laura: This is where you and I are so different. I'm like, "Don't give me the system. I'll invent the system." Just that idea that I think women may find it too dry and say like, "Oh, system, schmistem." I don't know. It doesn't feel exciting or creative enough to them. That's one of the things that I like about R|M, though, that we do here is that we make some of these headier things be immensely practical. I think that's what you need to sort of not feel like it's dry—that you see, "Okay, I see how I can apply this to the carpool lane or to selecting sports or to”—I don't know—"what school I choose and stuff like that."
The other side is they'll see the system is too hard, and they'll say, "It is just not worth the effort to me." They can't see—like what you were saying—the goodness of the system. They can't see that and—or maybe they can, but they're like, "I don't know. The effort's just not there for me because I'm buried under all these other things." This is where I think community and friendships are so important because, like I was saying earlier, what are you fascinated by?
There's that contagious spirit that I think we can have as moms where—this has happened to you and I, right? I'm bored or out of it or not interested in applying the gospel, but then you start asking me questions or bringing up conversations, and then suddenly, I'm perking up and I'm like, "Oh, yes. This is who I want to be." We’ve got to remind each other of truth—remind each other of why this is valuable. Biblically—you see it all over the Bible that you're never meant to be in isolation as a Christian. We're supposed to be with others and running this race as a group. I think that those are two ditches that I see on the opposite side, I guess, of what you're saying.
Emily: All right, let's get practical. Laura, if a mom wanted to do one to two things right now to help her grow in gospel motherhood—risen motherhood—apply these things—what are some ideas?
Laura: I have to say that if you haven't grabbed Gospel Mom yet, please grab the book. That is why we wrote it—that we really, really want moms to get caught up in the vision that we cast for what motherhood could be.
Emily: And then the workbook.
Laura: Oh, and the workbook.
Emily: Also important. The workbook is where the pen, the highlighter, the deep thinking, the real work happens.
Laura: Speaking of community, like we just did on the last segment, it is a great thing to go through with friends and probably produce even more fruit. Other things you can do is join a local Bible study. Start one in your neighborhood with friends. Start creating spaces to have conversations like this. I'm guessing your and my biggest tip is: create spots with people. Even, Emily—you came up to me the other day with another friend of mine or ours, and you were like, "Hey, I want us to have coffee so we can talk about theological stuff."
Emily: I am dying. We need to set that up. [Laughter]
Laura: Okay. We will. It was just so funny because you came up and like pointed your finger at both of us, and you're like, "We need to sit down and talk about deep theological things." I was like, "Yes, that's a friend that I want." You have to be bold to start those conversations and then not just let that coffee date turn into girl chat or gossip time, but instead, be intentional about what the conversation holds. And that is where a book comes in handy to guide the convo.
Emily: Yes, exactly. You know what? If you're like, "It is so hard for me to meet in person right now," first of all, you can always do this at the park. You can do it with the kids around. You can think really creative, but then there are times when it's a Voxer app or I don't even know what people use these days. Marco Polo.
Laura: We're probably behind.
Emily: WhatsApp. We don't know.
Laura: We're millennials. We're old millennials.
Emily: Yes, but there's some tech where you use to talk back and forth with each other while you're in the midst of your daily responsibilities or on your commute to and from work. This is how Risen Motherhood started. This is how Laura and I got started talking about these things. I think it just takes a friend to step forward and say, "I know you love God, and I love God. I want to go deeper with you on this topic. Are you okay if we talk about these more spiritual things? I have these questions from this podcast—would you like listen to this and then we can discuss it together?" I just think somebody has to go first, and then you may be amazed at what type of friendship and discussions develop.
Laura: Okay. With all of that, what kind of moms are we going to be?
Emily: Gospel moms.
Laura: Yes. We didn't even plan that. That was so great. That’s honestly what our encouragement is throughout this whole series and the legacy that we want to leave at Risen Motherhood—that we want each of you who are listening and in this community to latch onto the truth of the gospel with a white knuckle grip and trust that God is good and kind and for you, and trust that his Word and his work will carry you all the way to the gates of heaven. Trust then and know that you aren't going to be perfect on this path, but you don't have to be.
