Whole 08: Moms Just Wanna Have Fun—On Being Brave Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Emily Jensen: Recently, we were on a trip. We were looking for a family movie together, and we watched this movie called Yes Day.
Laura Wifler: Oh, yes. I know about that movie.
Emily: Which I'm not recommending or endorsing or all those things, but I'm telling you what we watched.
Laura: It's a fine movie.
Emily: I thought the beginning of the movie was so interesting because it shows this picture of a woman and how she transforms from being single to dating to getting married to becoming a mom. She goes from being a “yes” person and a risk-taker and fun. Then, over time, she becomes a “no” person. Then there's this one part where she has this montage where she's saying no to her kids in every way possible. She's like, "Over my dead body. Maybe tomorrow. You've got to be kidding me. Nope on a rope. Don't even ask." She's going on and on and on.
I thought it was so funny, but it also freaked me out because I was like, "Oh, I think I can sound like that sometimes." You realize as a mom how much you are constantly like, "Don't do that. Don't touch that. No, not right now. Come to me later. I can't deal with that right now." There's a hundred different ways that we are looking to protect and restrict and contain and keep it all under control. That can be our main focus.
Laura: No, totally. I know. There's an element that it's right and good for us as moms to be saying no. We're supposed to protect our kids from danger. We're supposed to teach them what is good, what is right, what is wrong—to keep them from behaviors that might be risky or harmful. Of course, no is very useful for maintaining some sense of discipline and rules in our lives. All of those things. There’s an element of us as moms—we should be saying no. We're allowed to say no. These things are good things, but you're right.
Somewhere along the way, I think that good thing can become bad, where suddenly, we're not saying no because it's in the best interest of our family or even of ourselves, but instead, it's because maybe we're afraid of things. We're feeling anxious about things. We're not trusting God ultimately in that instance. Or maybe we're just getting slowly more and more uptight. I know that has happened to me at times, seasonally, where I can feel myself—my stress level is high. Suddenly, I'm like—I didn't even hear the request, and I'm just irritable. I'm like, "No, no, you can't do that."
Emily: It's almost like we're not saying no out of love and out of trying to help our children grow in wisdom. It's like a convenience no, or it's a no that's like, “I'm just stuck in a rut, and that's just the automatic thing that comes out of my mouth.” There have been several times lately where I've said, “No,” and then I've paused, and I've been like, "Wait a second."
Laura: What did she say? You can ask me again. Let me process.
Emily: My kids have been like, "Why?" I start thinking about it, and I'm like, "I don't know why. This might actually be a reasonable request," but my knee-jerk reaction was just to say no. I think you're right. It's resistance to change. It's being inflexible, and sometimes, it's being fearful. I think this can have real impact in our tangible, everyday moments in motherhood.
A lot of these examples we're going to give are stereotypical overgeneralizations, but we know that there are extreme situations. But just one example would be: when we become fearful, overly anxious moms who are scared to take risks, we may stop living in healthy community, or we may stop going to events because of a risk of our kids are going to get sick, or maybe we don't want our kids interacting with another kid who might say something that we're uncomfortable with, or we're perpetually avoiding the library because of the risks that our kids could see a possible questionable book cover in the kids section, or we are avoiding or ignoring neighbors because of the risk that our kids are going to get confused about what a godly lifestyle is.
That list could go on and on and on, but in essence, we're making our world smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. Not because we always think it's the wisest thing to do, but because we're scared, and we don't want our kids to get hurt, and we're not really sure any other way to cope with it other than to just say, "No, let's just cut it off."
Laura: It happens for ourselves too. We get scared, and so we do things like not going to pursue that education or going back to school or getting a certification because we're afraid. Like, "Well, if I try that new thing”—or maybe it's a business or something like that—“then maybe I'll fail." We avoid all risk because we just want to make sure that our little world stays safe.
Or maybe it's even as simple as—we're not willing to go up and form a friendship with a woman at church that we like, or we think we might like. We're afraid, though, that she'll reject us, and there'll be another failed friendship that we can add to the list. Or maybe it's something like the hobbies that we desire. We don't want to fail at those things, and yet we're like, “Oh, I would like to get better at watercolor,” or “I'd like to get better at crocheting,” or “I'd like to do gardening.” I know for me, a lot of times that is—I have so many things that I want to do, and I like to do, and yet one of the biggest reasons I don't do it is because I'm afraid. “Well, what if it doesn't work out, and I spent all this money?”
It just feels too risky. I think that this show is so important—this topic of talking about taking risks, being willing to do that, or even having courage, especially in situations where—I like what you said, Emily: it's not because it's wisdom, but because we're doing it out of fear. There's a very different reason of not being willing to take risks because we wisely are saying, "Oh, that's not a risk that my family should take right now" versus one that says, "Oh, I'm just scared of the repercussions, and so I'm not going to do it."
We want to dig into that today and talk through that because this Whole series is about being whole as women of Christ and of God and knowing that, before we were mothers, we were women, and that that is our calling from the Lord. What does that look like? One of the things that I think—when we become moms—we're saying here is: very quickly, we can grow inward and feel like we're a shell of who we were, and we're just not willing to go out on a limb because of all these reasons we talked about. We want to talk about: what does it look like as a Christian woman to have courage, to trust God, and to take appropriate risks?
Emily: Which we sometimes have to exercise the muscle of more as motherhood goes on. One day, you realize, "Is this really the person that I want to be?" I think a Christian woman can take risks and trust the Lord because it is a risk to live in the world. Everything that God calls us to do involves risk. It's a risk to evangelize. It's a risk to step into a calling or a volunteer opportunity, even when you don't feel perfectly prepared or qualified. It's a risk to trust God in faith—to do new things in different seasons of life. Like you were saying, it's a risk to make new friends and deepen relationships, but there are also so many reasons that we have for courage because we know that God is with us, and God is helping us, and the Holy Spirit is guiding us.
There are some, of course, classic Old Testament verses on this. Deuteronomy 31:6, "Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid . . . for the Lord your God, he is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you."
Of course, this one is said in the context of God talking to Joshua as he's preparing to lead people into the promised land. Joshua 1:9—God says, "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go." That was the situation where he was asking Joshua to take a risk and to have courage and do something that seemed really scary.
God's encouragement to him is like, "I'm going to be with you wherever you go." It's really important that we remember God is our refuge and our strength and our protector, and we can trust him to be with us as we try new things at his leading.
Laura: It reminds me quite a bit of when you and I were first starting Risen Motherhood and it feeling very risky.
Emily: Terrifying.
Laura: Yes. To put our voices out there and our thoughts out there. We were saying things that we hadn't really heard people say before. I remember you and I talking about it, and we had agreed upon a five-episode mini-series essentially, and then we were never going to do it again. We're like, "We're just going to do five. It's fun. We'll do a project we're going to work on together."
I think some of that was wisdom, knowing, "Hey, this is a partnership, and we want to make sure that we have an out." Those are wise things, but I certainly can look back and freely admit that some of that was just because I was scared that I was going to look silly and that I was going to do it wrong or people were going to laugh or people were going to think like, "What on earth are they doing? Who do they think they are?" I remember a lot of that. Do you?
Emily: Yes. I remember feeling like there was such a risk too—"Is this going to hurt our family?” and “Is this going to mean that I can't be the kind of mom I want to be?" There were all of these questions about calling, and there were risks to “How am I spending my time?” and things like that. It was amazing to me because, even though I had all these fears around what Risen Motherhood was going to mean, as I just took one step in front of the other, and we responded one thing at a time to God's leading, he worked all those things out.
Our callings were not in conflict. He had solutions to things and provisions to things that we were worried about. You just realize—when God calls you to something, or he leads you to something, he's not going to leave you high and dry. He's going to help you in and through the midst of that.
Laura: It reminds me of—I feel like I've been saying this all the time because a friend said this to me recently—God calls you to the work, not the results. Especially when we're thinking about making a risky decision for our own lives or careers or our families that could be really good—or it could be really bad. You can see both sides—I think it's important to remember that God doesn't guarantee any result, and yet he does call us to do some of that work.
I wish sometimes that I had known that little phrase or understood that concept when we first started Risen Motherhood—that the goal for us wasn't that we become a nonprofit. Of course, we didn't have those thoughts in mind at first, but if I could just put my head down and do the work—instead, you and I were saying, "Do people like it? Are they responding? I guess we'll keep going."
The Lord was kind and used that as, I think, a signal of affirmation but also that remembrance that, "I'm just called here to do the work. There's a lot more freedom in that until the Lord calls me away." You'll know when God calls you away. If you're questioning, he probably hasn't yet. I think that that's something that is really helpful to keep in mind when we're taking risks. We're not supposed to be looking at all those results. We're supposed to be looking at the work.
Emily: That's a good word. I think another facet of this is remembering that it's important to be childlike in our faith and in our approach to life. Of course, we don't want the immaturity of a child, but the idea of being childlike is being simple and pure and trusting and playful. I love the phrase—and I don't remember where I originally heard this—but “a mature believer is easily edified.” It's like the immature believer who hears the sermon and picks everything apart and is always looking for the reason why it was wrong.
The mature believer hears the sermon and finds the truth in there and says, "Oh, I needed to hear that from God's Word," and they walk away edified. That's the type of childlikeness we're talking about.
It's good to remember Jesus welcomed children and said that they represent the kingdom of God. They sometimes possess these qualities of faith that adults lose over time. Children live in the moment, and they don't worry about every little thing. They're wondering where their snack is going to come from. They're not thinking much ahead—"I'm hungry right this second. Where's my food?" They're not thinking things way into the future. They take things at face value. They cry one minute, and then they burst out into laughter the next minute. They aren't too serious. They appreciate simple pleasures in life, and they blurt out things like, "Wow, that tastes good. That looks like fun. I want to join." They just go with the flow.
I think that, as moms, there are still going to be lots of nos in our motherhood. We are still the authority. We have a really important role to play in that, but we can also look for opportunities to fret less and laugh more and not be as cynical and be more trusting.
I think, for me, I really had to look for these things. It's been hard for me, but I remember there was a point where we got a giant freezer in our garage and filled it with cold water because my husband was getting really into cold plunges.
Laura: Oh, yes—very trendy.
Emily: I was like, "I don't really want to feel cold."
Laura: That does sound like the worst thing on the planet.
Emily: Why would I voluntarily get into this? It was also this thing—for me, I said yes to it because I was like, "My kids are jumping in. My husband is jumping in. I want to be willing to do something hard and uncomfortable for me that's not going to hurt me in the long term”—to just be willing to participate in what the family was doing and see what this is like.
Laura: I remember one of the first times we got an in-ground trampoline—so it's on the ground, flush to the ground, which is super fun. Works really well for my daughter with disabilities. I remember when I got on that trampoline—probably was a year or two ago—my kids' jaws dropped to the bottom of that tramp. They were like, "What? You're getting on here?" This is so silly, but the riskiness of it, like, "Oh, crap, I'm going to pee."
Emily: It's definitely going to happen on jump two. [Laughter]
Laura: Oh my gosh. Definitely. Not even a risk. It was a guarantee. Getting a headache because I'm old and getting hurt.
Emily: You feel like you look awkward. Don't you feel like you're a giant? [Laughter]
Laura: The visual. [Laughter]
Emily: We have one too. I was like, “There's people driving by seeing me out there. I look like a giant bird or something.”
Laura: That's so funny. I haven't really thought about that, but yes, I will now. Thank you.
Emily: You can honk if you ever see me on a trampoline. Okay, continue.
Laura: It's one of those things where it was so fun to bless or surprise my kids doing that. I think that it was one of those things where I didn't really want to do it necessarily, but then once I did, I was laughing my head off. I was laughing so hard with my kids. They were laughing. I was bombing them everywhere. Now, it's so funny because I'll go—I'm not going to even share that, you guys. That's TMI. I was going to talk about my strategy for using the trampoline, but I'm not.
Emily: You can imagine the practical—
Laura: The practical implications of what you have to do to mentally prepare for the trampoline—
Emily: Oh, man.
Laura: —and physically. Moving on. What's the next one?
Emily: I feel like we're illustrating it right now. It's just like, as whole women of God, we can and should be full of joy. I read this book this year on the character of Christ. It was talking about how Jesus exemplified every fruit of the Spirit. I'd never really thought about this before, but Jesus was the most joyful man to ever live. Even though he's described as the Man of Sorrows, and we know he took his faith extremely seriously—we know, because he is God incarnate, he also knew how to laugh and smile. He enjoyed things and people. He went to parties, and he ate at feasts, and he delighted in God and God's creation.
I love that—we have a little collection of verses here to remind us what God thinks about levity. Psalm 2:4 says, "But the one who rules in heaven laughs." Psalm 126:2 says, "We were filled with laughter, and we sang for joy. And the other nations said, 'What amazing things the Lord has done for them.'" Proverbs 17:22: "A cheerful heart is good medicine." This one is about the wise woman—Proverbs 31:25: "She's clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future." The question is, are we more uptight than Jesus?
Laura: It starts to make you ask the question, “Am I willing to have fun in my motherhood?” and “Am I willing to laugh and have joy?” I think that sometimes I've stepped back before and been like, "Man, I haven't had a good laugh in a few days," or, "I haven't really let loose in a week or two." Just in the sense of getting a belly laugh. You can do that with your kids. That's what's so fun. Sometimes, I think we think, "Well, that means I need a night out with the girls." No, that's not what it means.
It means that there's joy and laughter to be had in our homes, and we can cultivate that environment. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit, and we're to cultivate the fruits of the Spirit as Christians. We can let our joy in Christ overflow into levity in the home.
I remember this one day—my kids still talk about it—that we played tag—all five of us on the main level of our house. My husband and I were jumping over couches, vaulting over couches. We were sliding over the dining room table. We have a couple rugs that aren't heavy, like a runner in our kitchen. That thing is tearing all over the place because our dog is running around. He's got a ball in his mouth. We were playing a legit game of tag, all five of us plus the dog, and we were laughing so hard. Another time I had to stop and go to the bathroom.
Emily: All of these moments involve pee—[Laughter]
Laura: That's the plight of motherhood. Just get used to it. But, it's still a memory that I have. This was a couple years ago. My daughter will be like, "Mom, when we get home, can we play tag? Like that one time we played tag?" I'm always like, "Maybe, honey." It was impromptu, and that was part of what was so fun about it. We've done it a handful of times, and my kids literally always ask, "Can we play tag like that one time?" It's a sweet memory.
Emily: We have something like that. We went on a family vacation that was like a year and a half ago, and there was a jet ski available. People were being pulled on a tube. I have never driven a jet ski before.
Laura: Let's just be real. I was on this trip, and, you guys, Emily was a maniac out there. Literally, the whole family was like, "Who took over Emily's body? She is always on the water. She is driving like a crazy woman out there.”
Emily: I was doing some cool tricks, and my kids were so impressed.
Laura: The whole family was impressed.
Emily: Oh, man. It was such a blast. Again, that seemed so out of character for me.
Laura: It did.
Emily: I was just like, "I'm just going to do this. I'm going to try this. I can learn how to do this.” I don't want to be someone who is 60, 70, 80 years old and—
Laura: Unwilling to learn.
Emily: —like, "I've never done this before, so I'm never going to do it." Part of it was just telling myself, "I can do this."
Sure. If I get on it, and I can't learn it, and it's weird, and I don't like it, I don't have to do it again, but I loved it. My husband was like, "Why don't you go take the kids on the jet ski?" Our kids still talk about that. They're like, "Man, mom loves jet skis, remember that? Mom is the best person. You want her to pull you on a tube."
Laura: When we got home from that trip, Emily and her husband were like, "When are we going again?" [Laughter] I was like, "What?"
Emily: That was the most fun I've ever had on a vacation.
Laura: I loved that. Me too. It was so fun.
Emily: I think it's because I played. I didn't—
Laura: You let loose.
Emily: —just sit inside and like, "Oh, the fun is for the kids." I was like, "No, I'm going to have fun."
Laura: That's good. Sometimes it does take that initial getting over the hump. We can feel lazy, and you're like, "I'm just going to sit here where it's warm and comfy." It's like going on a walk. I never regret actually going on the walk, but goodness gracious, getting out the door with my coat on or whatever—it's the hardest thing to mentally hurdle over.
Emily: Yes, it is.
Laura: Our last one here—a Christian woman is resilient. I love this one because I think that, so often, it can feel like we are going to take one wrong move and our carefully crafted life is just toppling to the ground. But the good news is, in Christ, we're not that fragile. God is in control of all things. That idea of control is just a facade. We can remember that God holds all things together—that he's doing all that pleases him according to his will, and he's not going to let our feet slip.
God is, of course—we know through life experience that he does allow us to experience failure and disappointments. He disciplines those he loves, but if we’re in Christ, he's going to keep us. He's going to sanctify us and grow us and prune us so that we produce even more fruit. We can look at Philippians 3:8, "Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ."
Acts 20:24 says, "None of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God."
In all these things, we can take appropriate risks, knowing that God isn't going to abandon us to ourselves. We're not that fragile. I think about this a lot with—mostly in my career—thinking with resilience. I did that new book this year, A World Wonder. We had an episode on it.
We talked in that episode a little bit about the risk it was to write a book that was for mass market—wasn't explicitly Christian. I think that in any book that I write, there's just that fear of negative feedback or doing something so bad that you can't be an author anymore. Maybe us two here speaking—what if we say something so bad that we don't even know we say—that, suddenly, your career is over?
I always remember, and you and I both talk about this a lot—it's like, if our husbands are okay, if you and I are okay, if we are right with Christ—that's what matters. Then it's going to be okay. Even if these risks that I'm taking out there don't go well, or because of ignorance or a bad decision—a poor decision. I make the best decision I can at the time, but you can't see everything.
At the end of the day, if my family is okay, and I am right with Christ, then I feel like there's a lot of opportunity, actually, to take risks and to know that there's resilience there in life because that's not what life is all about—being perfect in all the things we do.
Emily: Yes. As careful as possible. I think we can make those layers of protection, right? There's God's commands. Then that's what we see with Pharisees or things in the Bible where they're like—it wasn't that they were just holding to God's commands. It was like there was layer upon layer upon layer added to that of protection and fencing and things that it was like, “Okay, now I need to be ten degrees away from this possible sin so that I don't take a risk.”
I think what you're saying is, at the end of the day, as women who are following him and orbiting our lives around him and fully submitting our lives to God, we're absolutely wanting to be beholden to him and his commands. But there's also a lot of freedom and a lot of things that we can experience and enjoy that are not sin. Jumping on the trampoline is okay. You can let your hair down. You can have the Mario Kart tournament with your kids.
There are so many things you can do that are fun and feel a little different and feel a little bit risky, but you can have courage to know God is going to keep you in Christ, no matter what.
