Whole 09: Let Go of the Beachball + What Forgiveness Is (And Isn't) Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Laura Wifler: Okay, Emily, here's my question for you. What is harder: forgiving other people or forgiving yourself?
Emily Jensen: Both are hard but probably myself because I think that, historically, when something bad happens, I tend to believe somehow, it's my fault—somehow, I caused it or contributed to it. I tend to always put a lot of weight on myself when something fails, and I've really had to process through that knee-jerk reaction that I have and recognize that, yes—well, it always takes two to tango. I may not be the sole contributing factor in every difficult situation. What about you?
Laura: It can go back and forth because—I was thinking about this even more, and I feel like, relationally, I have a lot of really great people in my life. I don't feel like I'm in this constant state of needing to forgive. Probably, it's just between my husband and I—the natural marital conflicts that occur because they see you in real life. I do think I have sometimes a harder time to forgive—maybe just specific to my husband. Oh, sorry, my husband! [Laughter]
But also, I hear you on forgiving myself, especially in areas where I know I've messed up. I don't know that I take misplaced blame or anything, but I do think when I know that I have sinned and I know that I've treated someone wrongly or behaved wrongly or done something wrong, whatever, I have a really hard time moving on. Instead, I just replay it over and over and over and ruminate on it and can't seem to walk forward because it's just on replay in my head.
Emily: I think that term—forgiving ourselves—is one that is common. People use it and know what we mean. But really, as Christians, what we mean is: receiving true forgiveness from God and being able to walk forward without guilt, shame, and condemnation, knowing that you are made right with God. It seems like the idea of forgiveness and motherhood is like, "Why are we talking about this? What do these things have to do with one another?"
We started this entire series because we wanted to look at some of the things over time in motherhood that you realize, "Oh, I need to deal with this." Or "I need to repair this." Or "I need to become more aware of this part of myself that I maybe haven't paid as much attention to because of the demands of motherhood." I think that having unforgiveness in our lives is something that can really impact not only who we are as women, but it can impact how we mother directly. There's a real link there that can be hard to be aware of.
Laura: Yes. This can come from anything. A betrayal of a friendship or a parent or pastor who has a major moral failure—our own kids’ sin against us or our sins and failures. Maybe you're someone who grew up in a very highly legalistic home, or you were hurt or abused in your home. I don't know. Maybe it's even like you were bullied at one point, and you're carrying that through. Your husband's failures. There are so many ways, I think, that we can be wronged and that we can do wrong. All of those things require forgiveness and learning how to offer it to others and to receive it ourselves.
I think, if we don't take the time to do that, you're right—it comes out in motherhood. And it can come out in a lot of different ways. I think, for some of us, we try to work harder—to be more perfect. "I won't do that again.” I know that's for me, like—"Okay, I'm going to put that behind me. I'm never going to do it again."
Emily: Or "I'll never be that way."
Laura: "I'll never be that way." Yes. Like that other person. Maybe it comes out in a hidden addiction or some sort of other outlet that we need. Maybe it's shopping or drinking or social media. We can take out our hurt on others. Sometimes, this is in socially acceptable ways. That might be with gossip or with trolling other people online, or it might be something where, behind closed doors, there's maybe some surprising ways that we react and respond to things. There's a hidden anger problem, or you shame your children for things. A lot of the times, that just comes because you're hurt. Hurt people hurt people. It's that whole saying. Forgiveness or unforgiveness does not stay contained. It bleeds out.
Emily: Oh, it's so true. I had someone describe this to me as trying to hold a beach ball underwater. It wants to rise to the surface. In order to keep it submerged, you have to keep your hands on it at all times. It's constantly moving around. Yes, sometimes you have energy to hold it there for a long time. As you age and you get tired and you get worn down, it takes more and more effort, and your arms get tired. Sometimes, things come up in your life like grief or transitions or something is triggering you. All of a sudden, that beach ball pops out of the water. You're unable to hold it down anymore.
It can start to feel like, "Wait, why did this happen out of nowhere? Why am I reacting this way? Why am I struggling with this addiction or this propensity towards something that I shouldn't be doing? Why am I reacting so big? Why am I suddenly struggling with crying about this? I can't be around this person, or I can't do this certain thing." Really, the reality is that something in our life has dredged up a thing that we haven't dealt with—that either we didn't know was down there or we knew was down there and we were hoping we would never have to face it. We were hoping we would never have to deal with it. We wanted to carry that hurt with us forever or that grudge against ourselves forever. We wanted to hold that bitterness, but then we're no longer able to.
Then I think, when that happens, we have a real choice to make of, "Okay, am I going to face this? Am I going to work through some healing, some repair work, some taking these things to God? Or do I want to grab that beach ball and try to stuff it back under again and see how long I can hold it until the next time?"
Laura: Yes. The good news is that a measure of healing is totally possible. God is kind. None of us are going to experience full or complete healing this side of heaven. I think that there can still be ripple effects, and there can still be scars carried, but God can bring us a measure of healing.
We can think about those epic stories from beauty to ashes. The idea of Joseph's story—"You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.” Forgiveness is one of those things that I think can go by undetected, like you're talking about, Emily. We keep shoving it down.
For the purposes of today's show, there are huge, deep offenses that are not just as simple as like, "I'm going to choose to forgive." We want to acknowledge that something that might be coming to mind for you right now is something that needs therapy. It needs more work. It needs conversations. We're going to talk about some of those things. We also want to say today that we're talking about all types of things, but we're also talking about the little grievances that we hold. Perhaps we're more so talking about those for what we're able to cover in the show content today.
Even those little things of seeing—maybe your child sinned against you, or maybe your husband sinned against you, or maybe it's just being grumpy and frustrated about someone's laziness or whatever. Those are little things. It doesn't have to be this huge mammoth thing that you're harboring bitterness over forever. Even in those little things that happen along the way, we're called to offer forgiveness. Those are the things that can come out over time if we don't deal with them.
Emily: I think forgiveness is one of those words that we think we know the definition to, but we don't always have a good handle on. We wanted to break it down here and talk about it scripturally. The word “forgiveness” is a pardon for an offense. It's ceasing to feel resentment against an opposing party, or it's literally just to let it go. Sometimes, I think it's helpful to think of the opposite of something to understand its definition. If forgiveness is letting something go, unforgiveness is holding an offense against someone and choosing to actively resent or punish them for it.
The reality with unforgiveness is that it always impedes the ability to have an intimate relationship. It always puts a block in between, and it makes it so that true peace and reconciliation in a relationship cannot occur. Really, this is, of course, going to intertwine with the gospel story, but that's why we need God's forgiveness, because our sin put a chasm between us and God. Isaiah 59:2 says, “Your iniquities have separated you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you.” That's a reality for us. Forgiveness—God coming in and saying, "I will not hold this against you"—is essential for us to have a relationship with God. That's true of our person-to-person relationships as well.
Laura: Yes. Forgiveness is commanded by God. It's not an option for a believer. I think that's something—
Emily: This is so hard.
Laura: It's really sobering. Right? It's like, "Oh, man, I have to forgive." You think about—I don't know if we have it in there. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Matthew 18. I was thinking about Peter. Peter's question, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me and I have to forgive him? As many as seven times?" Then Jesus responds, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times." We see also in Matthew 6, "If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Luke 6:37: "Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Matthew 6:12, "Forgive us our debts as we have also forgiven our debtors." That's in the Lord's Prayer. The most sobering one might be Matthew 6: "If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours."
Emily: Those are hard words, and I think in our modern culture, particularly, when we hear you need to let something go and refuse to be the one to punish them or enact revenge or to hold bitterness—that's counter-cultural.
Laura: Yes, it's wild.
Emily: It's offensive to our egos and our spirit, and it's hard to stomach. Yet, I love the parable of the unforgiving debtor from Matthew 18:21-35. Essentially, a man is forgiven a tremendous debt—a huge debt that he could never repay. Then he turns around and he holds, or he refuses to forgive, a very small debt that someone owes him. Then, this is what the master says: “‘I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. Shouldn't you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I have had mercy on you?’ Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. ‘That's what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.’”
According to this, Christians should be the most forgiving people on the planet. We should deeply understand what it means to have deserved something and then not gotten what we deserved. There's also this really beautiful quote that Jesus says in Luke 7:47 that I feel like should become my life verse. As I was reading it, I was like, "This sums up how I feel about everything." I'm going to try not to cry. "Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little." Just this idea of—because our sins are forgiven, we can abundantly forgive others. It's an example of how much we love because we were loved. If we don't realize how much we were forgiven for, we will be like that unforgiving debtor and hold all the little things against everyone else.
Laura: I had someone say to me once—it was silly. It was off-the-cuff about—I was late. I said, "I'm so sorry I'm late." They said, "Oh, honey, I am the greater debtor. Grace is all I've got." I know. I was like, "What a line!"
Emily: That was just for being late.
Laura: I know. It's something that was said in a flippant way to me, and yet, it has stuck with me anytime someone has hurt me and sinned against me. I have just thought, "Grace is all I've got." I think that there is a real perspective—this isn't even what we were planning on talking about right now, but oh my goodness, there's a real perspective that is put in place when you realize how great of a sinner you are against God and how much has been forgiven for you. What is it to you to offer forgiveness to that person? We're both tearing up right now.
Emily: I know. There's a lot to get into there. Even like the story where Jesus—all the religious leaders are accusing a woman of adultery, and he gets down, and he writes something in the sand, and it's very mysterious what he wrote there, but he's like, "He who is without sin throw the first stone," and obviously, God worked in that situation and must have brought to mind some things that they had all done. They all backed off very quietly and left the situation, and there is a very real reality about that—even being humble enough to let the Spirit bring to mind areas where you have sinned—where you have not been the perfect friend. You've not been perfect in your mothering. You've not been the perfect wife. You've not been the perfect daughter. And, again, those things are not for condemnation, but they are for perspective.
Laura: Right. That's right. What's interesting too about that story is that they leave oldest to youngest. I think there is such an interesting aspect to that about the maturity of life. As you grow and experience life, you realize how much you are not perfect and haven't done that. I think that's really true, right? It's easier sometimes to harbor bitterness or unforgiveness when you're young. You think you're still perfect. As you get older, you start realizing, "No, no, no. We're all messed up."
Emily: We've talked about what forgiveness is, but it's really important that we talk about what forgiveness isn't because, as we hear this word thrown out and what it means, it is so radical, it is so life-changing, and yet, it doesn't mean that we get walked upon or all those questions or objections that come up.
Even though forgiveness can feel like letting someone go is letting them off the hook, and it's letting them get away with that—that's not what it is because God says he is in charge of justice, and he will repay. And also, there is very practical wisdom and different authorities in our lives—things we can do that set up boundaries. And there are still consequences for actions, but there's a difference between consequences and bitterness. There's a difference between consequences and "I'm going to resent you." There's a difference between consequences and "I'm going to be passive-aggressive," or "I'm going to retaliate by withholding something that you love."
I think there's a real heart attitude difference where you can both forgive and set boundaries and say, "Our relationship needs to change in the future," or "I'm expecting some action here if you really say you're not going to do this again." I think this can be as simple as—with grandparents, maybe you brought your kids over to their house, and your parents didn't follow the rules exactly like how you'd laid them out, and you pick them up later and hear, oh, they actually watched a movie you didn't want them to watch, or they actually ate a bunch of candy and you didn't want them to have sweets after a certain time in the night.
I think there can be a real temptation to store that up in your heart and go, "Well, next time grandma or grandpa ask, I'm only going to let them go over there for half the time, or I'm only going to let them go over there supervised.” You can start to do it—and I think you can do it in a way that's "I'm trying to punish them for what they did," or there's a way that's forgiving and also "Hey, maybe next time there is some prep I can do. There are other solutions to that." I don't know. Am I saying the same thing? I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth.
Laura: No. No, no, no. I think you're right. I think it is a fine line, and some of it is a state of the heart. Just recognizing that what you're saying is—forgiveness does not mean that you don't have boundaries or there are not consequences for someone's actions. It doesn't mean you have a free pass to come back into my life and hurt me again. That might be with grandparents. I think that's a really good example because it's easy to store up all of the ways they don't follow our instructions and start to feel angry and feel violated. In some ways, that could be very true.
Yes, it comes out in the posture of our hearts as we say, "Hey, I want to have a conversation with you. I want to talk about this." Sometimes it's reactionary, like, "Okay, they are not willing to change—this person, their behaviors, or whatever. Now our family has to make some decisions of how we're going to respond to that." You're not doing that in anger to get back at them. You're doing that because you love your children, and you want to maintain relationship with the grandparent as much as is humanly possible.
There's a very big difference in the motivation of why you're making those decisions and perhaps the way that you're communicating them and the severity of them at times. Sometimes, I think we can quickly be like, "Okay, I'm going to slam the door," instead of offering some chances at redemption.
Emily: Yes. I think it's good to remember: biblical forgiveness is not a denial of justice, and we see that evidence in the cross. God forgave sinners, but there was still wrath and punishment for sin that had to be paid, and it was paid by Jesus. If someone's sin is not paid for by Jesus, ultimately, it will not be gotten away with. They will pay for it. It's really interesting because I think, sometimes that's where our mind goes—like, "Well, if I'm forgiving, then there's no justice," and that's not the case. Those things can be held together. We can refuse to resent someone or pursue our own form of punishment and have healthy boundaries, like what you were talking about.
Laura: Yes, totally. I think the other thing that can feel like—"When I forgive this person, then that means that I'm admitting it didn't hurt me." Or you can start to feel like, “Is it letting them off the hook in the sense that it wasn't really even that wrong or that bad or that grievous?” That's something that, when we forgive someone, that doesn't deny the hurt.
Emily: If anything, you're saying, "This hurt me, therefore, I need to forgive you because it offended me."
Laura: Yes, exactly. I think that that's really important, especially as I teach my kids about forgiveness. It's one of those things where I'm like, no, this doesn't mean that it doesn't matter—how you hurt me doesn't have any credence at all—but instead, it's—you can still honor the pain, and you can still admit that things are hard. You can admit that what they did was wrong to you. In fact, it's this crucial step to get to forgiveness where you can actually own the fact that you were wronged and hurt and not just sweep it under the rug. I think that's a really important and healthy thing to do.
Emily: Yes, in fact, it can help us grow in wisdom, I think, when we're able to admit how something hurt us and consider what it might look like to walk forward in that relationship—like, “Okay, what would it look like for me to be more discerning in this situation? What would it look like for me to love others well in this situation?” Yes, that's just the main thing we wanted to convey—forgiveness does not erase relational consequences, legal consequences, anything like that. Yet, we don't have to store up bitterness in our heart.
Laura: Yes, that's absolutely right. As we work through forgiveness, I think there are some offenses that it's sort of like, "Hey, we just can make the decision to forgive that person." It doesn't take a lot of rocket science. We know, like, "Hey, my husband said he was sorry for not doing what he said he was going to do, and we're going to move on."
Emily: You can forgive someone before they say they're sorry.
Laura: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Emily: Or if they never say they're sorry.
Laura: Also important. Also important that we should do that. Yes. That's key here. Then, sometimes it does take some work and some process to forgive grievances that we have in our lives or things that our own selves have done and to forgive ourselves. I think a big piece of this is being willing to be vulnerable with the right people about sharing and speaking about what happened to you—or maybe what you did, what hurt you, how you feel about it. It's that whole “bringing things into the light” that the gospel talks about all the time.
You are not the only person that has experienced this. There are probably unique facets to your story that will always only be yours, but God in his strange, mysterious way that this life is—our sufferings help one another. There are other people out there who have experienced similar things and can help you walk through that. It doesn't have to be professional counseling. It certainly can be, but it might be just with a friend or your spouse or a mentor or a pastor. I think it's one of those things that—don't feel like you have to share it with the whole world or admit it in front of the church or something like that. Just a couple of strategic people—bringing them into your life and sharing with you. That is a huge start and a huge beginning to the path of forgiveness.
Emily: It's good too, to remember that it can be short sometimes for these smaller offenses. It's something that can happen very momentarily, and then you don't think about it ever again, and you just move on. For some of these bigger things, it may be the work of a lifetime. It may be something that you have to keep revisiting over and over again. When that person hurts you again, you're like the seventy times seven person, and you have to keep going, "Yes, I'm going to forgive again, I'm going to forgive again, I'm going to forgive again."
Again, with counseling and prayer and wrestling with the same hurts and all of those different things where God is uncovering more and more layers of the things that are hurting you or where you need healing. It's good to remember—just because this issue comes up again and you may have to think about it doesn't mean you've not forgiven. It may be something you have to keep choosing, even though it's hard.
Laura: Yes. As hard and as uncomfortable as these things are, there's so much good in seeking God's healing to heal our wounds—to choose forgiveness. It's really, ultimately, as we choose to forgive, we're freeing up our hearts to love God and love others more fully. It can break generational patterns of sin and things where we're living in reactionary or fear-based motherhood.
I think that there's something really beautiful about forgiveness allowing us to do what we talked about on that first show, which is making God our orbit and to fully submit to him and what he commands. When he is that center of our focus—when we've eradicated many of these hurts and grudges and bitterness—we can mother from a place of peace and not as a reaction to what was or what wasn't done to us or what we did. That's exciting, I think—the freedom that is on the other side of forgiveness to allow us to fully enter into motherhood as God would have created us to be.
