Farewell 01: Exit Interviews—How R|M Changed Us Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Emily Jensen: Welcome back to another episode of the Risen Motherhood podcast. I'm Emily Jensen. My sister-in-law Laura Wifler will be joining me in just a few minutes. Today we are kicking off a new series, our final series of the Risen Motherhood podcast. This is pretty bittersweet, and it's all about mine and Laura's reflections and thoughts—the things we want to leave you with as we plan to close out the ministry of Risen Motherhood in April 2025.
But before we jump into today's show, we wanted to take a little bit of extra time at the start of this one to share what to expect in these next few months throughout our sunset. First of all, we want to let you know that our final book that we've written together is releasing on March 4, 2025, titled A Million Tiny Moments. This is a collection of short writings that Laura and I did together over the years here at Risen Motherhood, and it's meant to give you that quick reminder that what you're doing in the mundane moments of motherhood really does matter. You can pre-order it now anywhere books are sold or head to the link in our show notes for more information.
And if you want, you can join our launch team for this book. We haven't done one of these in many years, and we would love to have you join. It is completely free, and it comes with all sorts of fun giveaways, exclusive content from Laura and I, and more. If you'd like to be part of this final book launch, you can sign up through the link in our show notes.
Okay, another exciting thing on the horizon is the Sunset Celebration Party, and you can be a part of it from afar. Mark your calendar for Saturday, April 5, 2025. We are going out with a huge party in Fort Worth, Texas, and we'd love it if you grab your mom pals and join us via a simulcast for a time of reflection on all that God has done through the ministry of Risen Motherhood. Tickets are free, so don't worry about that. You just need to register at risenmotherhood.com/celebrationparty or head to the link in our show notes to have everything ready to go for your simulcast.
After our celebration party, we have a few more days of the ministry, and then we will officially close our doors on April 11, 2025. That means our team is going to go their separate ways. You'll see auto responses on our emails, and we'll be archiving some of our social media content. The good news is that all of our articles, podcast episodes, and resources on our website will continue to be available through April 2026. So don't worry—you still have plenty of time to take it all in and share it with your mom pals. If you want to learn more about the Risen Motherhood Sunset, you can head to the link in our show notes.
Lastly, remember that Laura and I will continue creating content on our own platforms. We would absolutely love to have you join us on social media, via our email list, or however you take in your content. Head to our show notes for links to follow us on our personal platforms. Okay, let's get to today's show.
Laura Wifler: Okay, Emily, this is our final mini-series.
Emily: Wow.
Laura: How do you feel?
Emily: I have mixed feelings right now.
Laura: I think I feel really good. [Laughter] I'm just going to be honest.
Emily: I know that I'm going to miss podcasting, and I know I'm going to miss podcasting with you. Even though right now you and I both always have a lot on our to-do list, and it can feel like I'm ready for some time to free up—I'm ready to feel a little bit more capacity for different things—I also know that in a few months, I'm going to have some idea for something and realize there's no podcast coming, and then I will feel a little bit sad.
It's bittersweet, and it's so bizarre to me because I can remember some of our first podcast episodes, and it feels like a million years ago, and it also feels like yesterday. It's just such a full circle moment, and it's so special that we're getting to see the period at the end of the sentence after all of the work and the time and everything.
Laura: Yes. I would say I feel really good, and then I feel really weird. All I mean by that is I think I am really excited because we're able to finish well, and that feels so special and so rare. You and I have been preparing for this for a lot longer than even I know our listeners have known about it. I just feel a sense of peace and completeness, and I feel like you don't get that very often in anything—I was going to say my career—but really in anything, where you feel like there's a total sense of peace.
I don't have any doubts. I wondered if, when we announced it, I would have doubts, but I have zero doubts. That feels really good. Of course, it is sad. Like you said, I think I'll miss working so closely with you. Who knows what the future will bring, but that, and our team—just how incredible. I'm always like, "What are we doing giving up this great team that we have?" They're so awesome. Anyway, as we're rounding that final corner, let's review the plan just a little bit for our listeners.
Emily: I feel like this is such a mom thing—like, let's talk about where we're going; let's talk about what the expectations are.
Laura: Expectations, yes. [Laughter] So true.
Emily: Let’s set clear expectations. Yes, we just wanted to bring this back up.
Laura: There's a lot happening.
Emily: It's been a while since we've talked about this. We had a full fall of sharing some of these last, really important principles we wanted to share with you guys. Hopefully you tuned into that series. Again, when we started to think about the final pieces of the puzzle before we sunset Risen Motherhood, it was really important to us that we taught you guys everything that we know—everything that we've learned—and that all of those principles were out there. That was last fall. Then this series that we're in right now is going to be the final podcast series for Risen Motherhood.
This is really all of the thoughts, all of the reflections, all of the predictions that we want to leave you guys with. We're going to do a lot of—even dissecting like, what were some of the critiques of Risen Motherhood? What do we hope the legacy is? What are our expectations for you going forward?
Laura: Whooo . . . expectations!
Emily: This is going to be just a really—it's a joyful season, but it's also, I think, a weighty, sober season. Yes, we're excited to get into this. This is our final series.
I know one thing we wanted to take a chance to share before Risen Motherhood ended is just the handful of ways that God has changed us in our time at Risen Motherhood. This just sounds very meta, doesn't it? [Laughter] Hopefully, it'll be interesting. It's an exit interview of sorts.
Laura: Yes. I like to think of it as an exit interview. Of course, by no means will this be exhaustive. We wanted to share a handful of the things that have bubbled up over the years that I know I can for sure look back on, and you can look back on, and say, "Wow, we were really shaped for the better by Risen Motherhood."
The first thing I think that we would say is that Risen Motherhood taught us to be more compassionate for others who did things differently and to not make assumptions about people or speak flippantly about a life experience. Or just to be really intentional with our words.
Emily: I know. This was something I'd say we learned the hard way a little bit, but truly, I think—I know for me, when I started out in motherhood, I had a very narrow and limited view of what it looked like. I think, as we heard from moms all over the world in a lot of different circumstances—and people were writing us in and sharing about their problems and their concerns and the things that they were facing and the ways they related to us but also the ways they didn't relate to us.
Also, as you and I walked through more motherhood, and we experienced more suffering and more sorrow and more disappointments, and we realized, "Wow, this isn't always really going the way that I thought it would go or the way I wanted it to go." I think, hopefully, we both grew in compassion and awareness of the wide variety of situations that moms are facing and the wide variety of decisions that they make. I know I was really challenged by that.
Even when we got to the point where we were editing articles, there were so many times where—and you did this too a little bit—but I would say, “What hat am I wearing?” I would try to read things as “Okay, how would a mom whose husband is not a believer—how would this hit her? How would a woman who's struggling with secondary infertility read this?” Thinking about things from different angles. We were definitely not perfect at this by any means, but I really think that was something I know I changed a lot in over the years.
Laura: Yes. I think it put a lot of teeth to the reality of, if we believe the gospel is transcendent—it applies to all people for all of time—then what does that really look like when you're unpacking the gospel in a thousand different situations? For us, it definitely taught us to start thinking, like you said, to put ourselves in another mom's shoes, even if we hadn't necessarily lived that experience, but to just try to consider her more carefully. I'm thankful for this change. I think it's been really good for me holistically in my whole life. Of course at Risen Motherhood, but now—I feel like even when I'm engaging with other people in real life or I'm working on something for my church or whatever, this skill comes into play, because it does take time to grow in remembering, "Hey, I want to think of the other person. I want to put myself in somebody else's shoes." It's something, too, that I'm really trying hard to teach my children.
Emily: Yes. I heard someone one time say, “If someone is doing something and you're like, ‘Oh, I don't like that,’ or ‘I don't think that seems right,’ try to challenge yourself to think of a few reasons why they would be doing that, that aren't automatically bad reasons—it might just be practical reasons.” Again, it's growing in that compassion and awareness of different situations.
Laura: Another one.
Emily: Okay. Let's do another one.
Laura: Another way I think we've grown is: it has taught us to have a deep well. What I mean by that—Emily, do you remember when we traveled for a podcast interview, and they were going to do like five shows? This was a real studio, a real place. It even said “On Air” up high in the window. I remember we didn't get any pre-interview questions, and she was basically like, “You can bring your Bible, and that's it.” I was like, "What?" Oh my gosh, I was just like—
Emily: —Yes, we were very note-dependent.
Laura: Oh, very note-dependent.
Emily: I still love notes, but I've changed a little bit. Continue.
Laura: Oh, well, this interviewer said to us—she's like, "You'll be fine. You can just speak from the well." Do you remember that?
Emily: We were like, "Whoa." [Laughter]
Laura: I know. But she was so confident in us. It turned out that those interviews were great. I didn't say everything perfectly, but I think there was something of—I had to learn, one, to trust myself that I have a well, but two—I think it taught me that, hey, I want to cultivate the well. I want to feed the well so that I have it when I need it. Does that make sense?
Emily: Yes. I think it's a little bit like—in Bible study—this is another thing that I think I've learned throughout Risen Motherhood—it's way more like a savings account, in the sense that whatever I'm reading that day may not even apply in that moment or be spent that day on encouragement that I need. But what I'm doing is: I'm storing up truths, and I'm learning all these different things because, down the road, there is a day where I might need wisdom, or I might need to apply the gospel, or I might be studying a different passage of Scripture and that passage helps provide context and now, oh—now I have a light bulb that goes off.
Then I actually have something to draw from, because there's been this well there. It's interesting because it's not just for content creation, but also for our lives and for motherhood. That's where that crossover of having the deep well comes from, where I've been so appreciative of saying, "Hey, you don't know what you're going to need to know." There have been so many times—even where I've been editing articles, or I've been reviewing resources for the website—and I've been tempted to foo-foo something because I'm not going through that right now, or I'm like, "I don't know—does anybody really need this resource or that resource?"
Then one day, I did, and I was so glad that I had thought about that issue in motherhood before I needed it. I remember one topic specifically is: what does it look like to walk through grief and suffering well? I feel like I had to consume a lot of resources about that before we walked through some really deep grief and suffering in our family. I was glad that I had something to draw from, and I wasn't just starting from scratch.
Laura: Yes. I love it. I think this next thing that we learned relates to this. It's the fact that Risen Motherhood taught us how to trust the Spirit to work. Earlier, I even said, “Hey, it taught me to trust myself.” I think, ultimately, I should even rephrase that, but this element of trusting the Spirit to work. I know that you and I have really found that to be very true—that the Spirit really does give you words that you didn't know you had—really does show up in times that you need.
Just this element I think that—Risen Motherhood has put me in a lot of spaces where I've felt insecure, or I felt scared—a lot of anxiety or not knowing what the right answer is or not wanting to do something and being like, "Why did I say yes to this?"—that whole thing. It really has put me in deep dependency on the Lord. Truly saying like, "Okay, God, I don't have what it takes. My well probably isn't deep enough. I'm trying to cultivate, I'm trying to make deposits, I'm trying to be faithful, but it's not deep enough to do this thing that you've got me in. You're going to have to perform here. You're going to have to show up."
I think that has been just a great lesson of learning to trust the Lord, and even trusting that God is bigger than our failures and that somehow, even as we share, God still continues to use the ministry. Despite our failures and imperfections and all the ways that we maybe haven't gotten things right or not had a deep enough well, the gospel still goes forth. It's not dependent upon us, but he chooses to use us. That's pretty cool.
Emily: Yes. I love Romans 1:16. I think about this verse often: "For I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." Man, I literally—almost every time I get a message from someone who's like, "Oh, Risen Motherhood changed me," I think, “Oh, that's the power of the gospel at work. That's actually the Spirit at work through the Word. We were just the conduit.” Or, that was a delivery mechanism for the thing that actually had the power. That has given me so much more confidence in my personal evangelism.
I think, when I first started Risen Motherhood, I was weirdly—even though we were talking on a podcast—very timid in my real life of talking to people about faith or asking them hard questions or sharing gospel truths with them. Over the years, the more I've seen God use whatever rambling it is that we do on the show and get to see the power of the gospel transform people, I'm like, “Oh, all I’ve got to do is share this with them, and God will do the work, or he won't do the work for whatever reason. Okay.” It's been so fun and so freeing.
Laura: Oh, yes. I love that. Just the self-forgetfulness, I think, that can come with trusting the Spirit and saying, “Let him do the work.”
Another one is that Risen Motherhood has taught us how to be humble and course-correct.
Emily: Yes. This one has been really tough. I think one of the things we felt over the years is the weight of Risen Motherhood—of being a leader, I think. I wasn't really starting out—
Laura: I don't like thinking about that.
Emily: —thinking that we were leading something—we were leading a team, or we were like somehow leading women. It's still awkward for me to say that or think about, but the reality is of leaders: they can't please everyone. They won't please everyone. They won't do everything right. You make mistakes, and you do it in front of everyone. You struggle. You know that you're going to do something, and a bunch of people are going to follow you, and you're not sure if you're headed in the right direction. I think that that almost crushed me at times.
There were times when I was just like, "I want to quit because that is such a crushing, terrifying pressure," but I remember—you've said this to me many times and my husband said this to me many times like when we were going to put something out—it's like, "What's the worst thing that could happen?" I'm like, "I don't know! People are going to be led astray, and everything's going to burn to the ground, and it's all going to be horrible.” He's like, "The worst thing is you apologize if you do something wrong, and you clarify, and you set it straight. Then God works in and through that." I'm like, "Oh, okay." I think, oh yes, that would stink, and I would be mortified, but also, God would be with me even there.
Laura: Yes. I think that it is very humbling to have all of your mistakes, or many mistakes, be very public and have to pivot publicly. I think that it's definitely taught me—because I have a tendency that, when I'm corrected or really, if I feel like it's unjust—I don't agree with them—I have zero fear. I do tend to be a high-justice person and really want to defend and have people understand me. I have had to get a lot more used to being misunderstood and to not defend myself. I think, when someone's right, I have no problem pivoting.
I think that I've been really thankful whenever I get something, and you and I talk and we're like, "Actually, yes, this person does have a really great point"—but then for all of that, there's also all the ones where you're like, "Hey, here are the hundreds of reasons why we're not going to do that. We understand that you don't see that," but I don't get the chance to defend myself. That has been hard, but it's been really good for me, I think, to learn to trust that like, “What does God think about me? What does Emily think about me? What does my team think? What does my husband think? My kids? My church body?”
If, hey, we're all good, then like, "Okay, whatever about this critique or comment." I don't have to vindicate myself. I can trust that, at the end of the day, God's going to take care of that. Whatever's been said to me probably isn't even that bad, and I just want to be right with my people. I think that's been really good for me to be able to learn to just let things slide and not feel that I have to self-justify, even if I'm right, [Laughter].
Emily: The Lord knows. Another way we've grown is really in our understanding of the importance of community on mission. Really, behind the scenes, I feel that we created so many connections, and we had so many friends and, honestly, a lot of people that reached out to us that were incredibly generous with their time and incredibly generous with their mentorship. Man, I just look back, and I'm like, “Just a gal in the middle of cornfields in central Iowa on a microphone doing nothing. How did we get connected to these people? How did this happen?” It's all the Lord.
I think we do want to just acknowledge how thankful we have been for those who have invested in us, helped us, given us their time, given us content. We have not done this alone by any means. You can never do ministry alone.
Laura: Yes. I have been very impressed and grateful and reminded of how much I want to pay it forward when I look back and see all the people who invested in us. It's that mentality that “all ships rise,” and that, when we band together and we help one another—we share knowledge; we share techniques and tactics and strategies—then everyone benefits. I think that's something that I believed in theory when Risen Motherhood started, but to see it actually boots-on-the-ground play out has been really beautiful. I think, too—we owe a lot to our team and to the board for really helping us get to where we go. Yes, for sure.
Emily: A quick shout out too as well to our in-real-life community, I think, who also were on mission with us in a lot of unseen ways—whether that's our families who have spent a lot of time with kids and different things, our husbands who've been very supportive and flexible over the years, and our churches.
Laura: Yes. Okay. Another thing we've learned is it has taught us to value work over results. I think for us—speaking a little bit of like, “Hey, how do people notice us or whatever?”—I think that I've always, again, believed this, and then we saw it come to fruition that content is king. Doing good work—doing it in an ethical, moral, consistent way that honors the Lord—will eventually get noticed. It might be a slower pace and it might be not as—it's usually not as quick as other types of strategies—but just seeing what a consistent, faithful plod does.
I think you and I really learned the most important thing that we can do is put our heads down and do the work and trust that God is sovereign. He's going to do what he wills. We can't strong-arm results.
I think I've shared this before at Risen Motherhood on a show, but I have released a lot of books now at this point, and I think there have been some books that it's like—I hardly did anything. I didn't know what I was doing. And wow—that one really took off. Only God. This other book just went everywhere and should have done really well, but maybe it didn't take off as much.
At the end of the day, I don't have to wonder or worry. I'm just like, "Okay, I trust God with the results that he's getting it to the right people that want it and need it." I don't need to strong-arm things into happening, but I can trust what he wills will be done. Our job is not to achieve some certain result; our job is to do the work well and faithfully.
Emily: Yes. There were so many times over the years where we really—you and I as content creators—backed further and further away from the numbers as well.
Laura: Yes. We used to really care about numbers, and now, I could not even tell you.
Emily: Yes. I don't even know what our podcast downloads are.
Laura: I have no idea.
Emily: I don't even know what any of those things are. I think that's been a really good, healthy thing because it's allowed us to focus on—like you were saying—the content that we're creating, the faithfulness of it, the excellence of it. And then saying, hey, yes, there's a place to talk about numbers and growth and the return on investment and all those things, but that doesn't have to be what's driving us, and it's—
Laura: Well, and our team knows to alert us.
Emily: Yes, someone is watching it.
Laura: Someone is watching, just for the record.
Emily: It's just this—I think in real life, it's helped me too. Real life. This is real life. In my non-podcasting life, it's also been really helpful because this idea that—just because something is big or it's growing doesn't mean it's blessed by God.
Laura: Yes. That's good.
Emily: Just because something is small or it appears that it's not growing doesn't mean that God isn't for it or that it's not doing something meaningful. A story that always stuck with me to that end is the story of Adoniram Judson, who was a missionary to Burma in the 1800s. A bunch of you guys are probably really familiar with this story, but his missionary journey in that was incredibly hard. Anytime I've heard about his story, I'm like, "Whoo, that's a lot of suffering, a lot of struggle, a lot of pain, a lot of persecution." It just seemed like there was no visible fruit in his lifetime.
I think he died—and I'm making this number up—but it was something to the effect of six people or something had been converted. He'd given his lifetime to this ministry in Burma. Now, we're in 2024, and there's reportedly over two million Christians in Burma. Many historians would attribute that to Adoniram Judson's ministry. The gospel can look like it's not doing anything, and it's being rejected, and it's not doing these big, flashy things right away, yet God is in the business of multiplying the tiny seed that's planted into this big tree that eventually produces a lot of fruit, even in and through persecution. I don't know—it's a mystery to me, but I also think that's something that's really been hammered home in my heart.
Laura: That's good. Okay. I'm going to have you do this next one, Emily. I feel like only you—
Emily: What did I have to say here? Let's see.
Laura: I don't know. You wrote this, "Risen Motherhood taught us about leadership and culture."
Emily: Oh yes. This is more of an internal thing in terms of our team, because I remember—you remember, Laura, you and I—when we started to bring on team members, and then we had to teach them to do things that we were doing, and we were like—
Laura: Oh yes. I was like, "How do you teach what you've never been taught?"
Emily: We were like, "We don't know." We had to do all of this unraveling. I feel like, over the years—I did not go into Risen Motherhood thinking, "We're going to lead an organization. We're going to have women that we're working with or even writers." I've done a lot of work—we both have—to develop writers in this space over the years. I just think that facet of it, to me, was unexpected. And it's also been a huge joy and blessing, but it's also made me think a lot harder about what creates a good culture or environment to be in.
That has translated into church groups that I've been a part of or into my family life of like—what tone am I setting here? What is it looking like to come alongside these people, to equip them to do work—to what you're saying with “all ships rise”—to say like, “How can I find the gifts in these people and then support them to go and run and do and not hold them back with micromanagement or my own opinions or preferences about things?” I don't know. I've learned a ton of lessons about that, which may or may not be interesting to people who are listening, but there's this whole internal facet as well that has caused a lot of growth for me.
Laura: Yes, I agree. I love entrepreneurship. I love business, and I couldn't have told you that "oh, I really want to run a ministry someday," or anything, because, yes—you and I both been really honest that this wasn't the plan. I think that has been one of the most fun things for me—cultivating our team members’ gifts and just seeing them fly. Risen Motherhood is a little bit of a place where you're going to sink or swim on your own. We're going to support you, but also—remote workers. And it can be hard too with moms on all different schedules because we want to be really supportive to that lifestyle.
I think you're right, though—just fostering a team, understanding what makes a team tick and work well together. Even I know, for me—I wasn't planning on saying this, but working within a budget has been really good for me. I tend to be the one in my marriage who's just like, “La-tee-tee . . . tell me if there's a problem.” It's been really good for me. We have a great finance director. She's incredible. Just seeing like, “Okay, how do we really think through the math and the strategy and the numbers of it all?” God has been so gracious to provide.
But also, still working within what he has provided and not working beyond our means or things like that. I think I've learned a lot more on that legal, business side that has been—it's not my most fun side of things. Do you remember at one point we were both like, "All we're doing is legal and finance." It felt like we weren't even doing what we wanted to do anymore.
Emily: There was like a year or two there that was very heavy as we were setting everything up.
Laura: Yes. The year we became a nonprofit, it felt like all we were doing was legal and finance and HR. Thankfully, we've got the right people in the right places. They're incredible. Yes.
Emily: That's a whole thing.
Laura: Okay. Another one is: Risen Motherhood taught us that the gospel really does apply and speak to everything. We know this might come as a surprise, as something we actually learned, but—I don't know about you, if you would say this, Emily, but I felt like—I don't think that I was really sure. I think that I knew it spoke to these big things, but every show we did—because, at first, we were just doing podcasts. We weren't writing. Every show we did, I felt like, "Well, I don't know! Let's discover how it does or what it does and in what ways."
It was incredible to me that—I think that first year or two, we never let off the brake of creating shows. We did one every week for a very long time. We had fifty to a hundred shows that were coming out. I just kept being like, "Oh my gosh, and there's another topic, and there's another topic, and the gospel applies to that and to that and to that." It was just one of those revelatory things I think that we learned, or I learned, in the early years that—oh my goodness, there is not a topic on the planet that you can't go to Scripture and glean wisdom for.
Emily: Yes, so encouraging.
Laura: It's kind of shocking.
Emily: It is.
Laura: We lived thousands of years past when this book was written, and it's relevant. Come on. Come on, people. That's crazy.
Emily: I know. It's such a comfort and encouragement, I think, in our culture today, where it feels like, “How do you even know what's true?” What's right and wrong feels like it's shifting every day, and everyone has their own opinion, and I just want to live my truth. I think, as a Christian, it can feel very chaotic. This was part of our heart to start the show—but what's right? Capital R Right.
Laura: Totally was. It totally was.
Emily: Because I want to do what God says.
Laura: I want to do the best way. I want the best.
Emily: I'm like, “I want it. Yes. If God has a good design, I want to follow it.”
Laura: It totally came from almost like a—it wasn't prideful, but it could almost sound that way.
Emily: I know. [Laughter] I think we were genuine and earnest.
Laura: Yes. It's like, “Yes, I want the capital R way. I like it.”
Emily: “I want the capital R Right way.” Yes. It is refreshing to be like, “You know what? God's Word really does give wisdom and commands and principles to every area of life.” What we find in some of those things is that there's a lot of freedom to do whatever you feel led to do. Yet, there are some hard and fast truths that don't change. It's given me such confidence, even in consuming content, to be able to sift through like, "Okay, this is something where there's a lot of freedom, and, within bounds, there's not a capital R Right strategy for this."
But then also, there are some things that people are sharing that are shifting the very unchangeable foundations of God's truth. I get to reject that and teach others to do the same. It's just like a whole thing. That's been awesome.
Laura: A little bit of a right turn here, but related with applying the gospel to everything, I think one big thing that you and I both had to learn too was how to take our thinking and make it applicable so that others could do it too. We didn't really realize we had a system until we slowed down and wrote down the system. We put that in our last book, Gospel Mom. The system is really in there. If you're wondering, "How do I think like Laura and Emily have thought or do what they do on the podcast?" It's all in there in a very methodical way.
I thought that was a really interesting process for you and I to go through, where—we had been doing this thing for years and years and years, and it was very much under our skin, but how we do what we do was somewhat vague. I think that was a good practice for us, and now, I feel like this skill is very transferable to other people.
Emily: Absolutely. Okay. Finally, this is a big one here. Risen Motherhood taught us what it means to live in light of redemption. That was where the name came from. That was our heart in this whole thing—what does it mean to be a mom who is changed by the fact that Jesus died for her and rose again? We wrote down a lot of these principles in Gospel Mom. There's a manifesto in there. If you have that, that's what we're referring to—some of those principles there.
I just think it's been so beautiful to be able to learn that over the years and then walk in freedom as a result of that, and honestly, just have—I don't know. I don't know if it's getting older or what, but I was thinking the other day—our pastor shared—it was three ways to know what God's called you to or something about that. Essentially, you've got to obey the Bible. Oh no, what are they? You've got to obey the Bible. You've got to be faithful in what you've already been given to do. There are clear things that are already in front of you that you need to be faithful to. Then, look at where you're gifted and you're fruitful. I was just thinking about—
Laura: —Or what breaks your heart.
Emily: Yes. What breaks your heart. Where are the issues that you're drawn to? I just think it's been so fun because, as motherhood has gone on—and I thought more and more about “what does it mean to live a risen motherhood?”—I think I've also been able to live more into my calling.
The other day, my husband was saying, "Hey, we should get help with this or that thing." I thought it was so interesting that I was like, "I don't feel defensive right now." I think if he would have said that ten years ago, I would be like, "Well, do you think I'm failing? Why do you think we need help in this area? Because you think I can't do it, and I can't do it all myself. What does that mean?" I just was like, "Yes, let's get help." I feel secure in the way that God is using me in the kingdom and that I can't do everything. It was—I don't know—a revelation moment for me.
Laura: I love that. Yes, the idea of—as you root your identity in Christ, the more secure you are in who you are. Also, I think the more willing you are to change to be more like Christ, if that makes sense.
Emily: Yes.
Laura: I love this. The “live in light of redemption.” A lot of people ask us, "What does risen motherhood even mean?" I get that, but it just means that—remember we're on this side of the cross. We have all these promises in Christ with the Holy Spirit living in us if we trust in Christ, and we have the hope of heaven yet to come. I think, like you said—and there's tons of promises in the Gospel Mom book, the Risen Motherhood book, the Million Tiny Moments, all of those—it's woven into everything we do.
I think, for me, it's just been—I think this is my optimistic side coming out. I tend to have a very easy ability to have an eternal perspective. Part of that was really fostered by my parents asking and pushing us towards having an eternal perspective. Sometimes that forces me—I can wish away the here and now. I think Risen Motherhood has been really good for me of just recognizing the promises that I have today—the hope and help that I have in this moment. I don't live to just endure and survive until heaven, where everything's going to be better—which, I think, is a little bit my mentality: survive, grit through it, and get to the good thing of Heaven. Instead, I can live a flourishing life here and now. I have the help of the Holy Spirit to change me and grow me and to enjoy life in this moment.
I think that has been really helpful for me. I think each person probably has a natural bent. They're either really curious and into the here and now, and they forget about heaven, or you're more heaven-focused, and you don't really think about the here and now as much—or at least the promises that we have in Christ. Either way, I think it's good to just swing back that pendulum a little bit. I've been really thankful because this ministry has forced me—because we go through the gospel of creation, fall, redemption—and in that section, I'm forced to think, "Okay, what hope do I have right this moment?" Instead of endure and then, someday, it's gone. How can I live well in this moment?
Emily: Yes. I feel like the biggest thing for me has been walking in freedom from fear. Early in my motherhood, I think, and along the way, I've had a very fear-based approach deep down in my heart, if I'm super honest—where I was like, “I'm scared I'm not going to be good enough,” or “I'm scared I'm going to ruin my kids,” or “I'm scared about how this is going to affect my reputation.” I think there are a lot of things to fear—bad stuff happens and the fall is real—but—
Laura: I think we have a mini-series on that, Emily.
Emily: Oh, we do. You're right. [Laughter]
Laura: Something that could help. All about fear.
Emily: Maybe that was when I had a breakthrough. I'll go listen to that. I just think really believing God is in control and learning to make decisions more and more—and I still need to correct on this—from a place of trusting God and doing something because I think that this is what's going to further the kingdom or this is in alignment with God's heart and not because I'm scared of what's going to happen if I don't. I just think so many moms walk in fear. Hopefully, Risen Motherhood has helped others in that same way.
Laura: I love that. Okay. We have come to the end of our list of all of the ways Risen Motherhood has changed us. Again, thousands upon thousands more ways. I think some of them we don't even know or recognize.
Emily: Not even aware of. God's like, "I really corrected this big thing in you and you're not even acknowledging it." [Laughter]
Laura: Seriously. I'm sure when we get to heaven someday, we'll see all of those things.
