Fear 04: The Perspective Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Emily Jensen: Hey there, friends, Emily here. Welcome back to another episode of Risen Motherhood in our Fear mini-series. Did you know Laura and I kind of hope that our show isn’t enough for you? We know that ongoing discussions in real-life community with other believers is so, so valuable, which is why we include discussion questions with every single show. We hope you'll head over to our show notes and find those. Maybe there's a friend that you can meet with over video, or whatever that looks like right now, and talk more about the things that you're listening to.
We also have transcripts in our show notes. That's another great resource if you find that you want to go back and reference something we said, or just get more clarity, all of those things again, are there in our show notes. We also have a Fear landing page to go along with this series and we've got a roundup of books for you, books for your kids, books that we hope might become good discussion, and further research for you guys. Head on over to risenmotherhood.com/fear to find all of that and we hope that serves you. Okay. Let's get to the show.
Welcome back to another episode of Risen Motherhood. I'm Emily here with my sister-in-law, Laura.
Laura Wifler: Hello, hello.
Emily: We're welcoming you back into our Fear mini-series. If you haven't joined us yet, we would encourage you to listen to all of the episodes in this series, preferably chronologically, but we'll take you in anywhere you all may come in. We hope that each episode is looking at a different facet of fear and how we interact with it in motherhood, and then, of course, how the gospel applies. We're excited to have you guys back.
Laura: That's right. We're really happy you guys are here with us for another episode and today we're actually talking about who helps us in our fear. It feels like an ambiguous question, but really what we want to talk about today is the role of the local church with our fears and you could even expand that to say, believing friends, any of your friends that are gospel believing, how do we talk about it with them? What role do they play? Why did God give us the gift of other believers, really?
When I was thinking about this topic, I kept thinking about three facets of the church that can encourage us in our fears. One of them is the church that has gone before us, right? Christian heroes, in a sense. I don't love that term because I do feel like the quiet life that no one knows about is going to be just as heroic, if not perhaps more, right?
Emily: There's only one hero. [laughs]
Laura: Oh, ooh, Emily got the Jesus juke right there. Wow. Wow. That was good.
Emily: That was a Jesus juke.
Laura: That was a total Jesus juke. That was good. I needed that to set my heart right.
Anyway, the whole Christian hero thing, you all know what we're talking about, at least it's a phrase that we think most people can understand. The church has gone before us, even all the way back, think biblical times, but anybody who is prior to our lifetime.
Then we have the church universal right now. There are people around the world who love Jesus, love the Lord, live out the gospel daily, and they are in a variety of different circumstances, many of them vastly different than at least ours here in the United States and for probably many of you listening as well.
Then we sort of have, what was the other one that I was thinking about?
Emily: Local.
Laura: Oh! Your local church! The physical people that you know in real life and what the role of the local church is. We want to talk through those three categories today and what roles they have and how they can be helpful to us in our fears.
Emily: Yes, the first one you mentioned that can be so critical is looking back and seeing it's never been easy to be a Christian. It's never been without fear, without tribulation. Even the Bible tells us, “If you're going to follow Jesus, you will experience troubles and persecution and hardships and suffering, that will happen in some form or another.” As we look back and see how early Christian martyrs and early evangelists, people in different situations, were faithful to Christ in the midst of scary, hard things and in the face of death, it can really give me courage and it can reshape the way I'm thinking about my life now.
Laura: Yes, absolutely. This is where I feel like biographies are just so important. I know that I've talked probably a lot about biographies and my love for them, and we're going to share with you guys a few biography ideas and we have a whole list of them that are going to go into our show notes, but I think a couple of things to keep in mind when you’re thinking about church heroes or people that have gone before us in the faith, is that they're not perfect and we shouldn't expect in their books, in their histories or in the things that we read about them, for them to feel like, oh, they made every single right life choice and they were totally sinless...
Emily: Or that it's prescriptive.
Laura: ...Or it's prescriptive for our lives. How often do we read and think, "Oh, I must be like that," but it's really not? There's, I think, a model to look at and to say, “Wow, I can critically think about this. I can take this in and I can see where it applies to my life, but I don't necessarily have to feel like this is exactly how—” I know often I will feel like, “I need to go be a missionary or I need to go risk my life in the mountains somewhere to bring the Bible to people who've never heard of the Lord,” but when it comes down to it, I don't know if that's what God's asking of me today.
Emily: Yes, I think it's just reading a biography, or even I love autobiographies, I just started another one recently on Dr. Helen Roseveare and she's talking about how, “As you read this, don't necessarily do what I do, but learn from the mistakes that I made. See my thought process and how I grew and walked with the Lord, see the hard lessons that I learned.” I thought it was just so wise and helpful because she's saying, “Hey, let's look back on my life and see how God worked,” and then encourages readers to take those same principles and pursue the Lord in their lives where they're at. I think those biographical, autobiographical stories, whether it's in scripture or outside of scripture, can really help us think about our lives in a new way.
Laura: I think that the best biographies have great leads, they have character qualities that make choices that are really challenging, aspirational, or wise. For me, I think it's sometimes been a good ticket for jolting me out of mediocracy or just causing me to think about, okay, what am I giving my life towards? I think that it's always kind of good to ask yourself,, “If my faith was persecuted or if things weren't as easy for me—some of those fears—if they were truly realized—what would I do?” Because in a lot of these books, these women and men, they’re facing probably all of our deepest fears, and it's just amazing to watch how they go through it.
We want to share with you guys some moms who have been through some really scary stuff in church history, I think of Perpetua and Felicity. We're going to include links in our show notes for everybody so that you can dig deeper into these people, but these women are from the third century. Perpetua is a noblewoman and then Felicity is actually a slave woman, so very drastically different backgrounds, and they end up meeting in jail. Perpetua was 22, I can't remember how old Felicity is, but they are both moms. Felicity is pregnant and Perpetua has a little boy who is brought back and forth from the jail in order to nurse. They are in jail for their faith.
Emily: There's this pretty incredible quote, actually, Perpetua kept a journal through this time, which is part of why we have a record of it, but her father keeps begging her to renounce Christ, but she won't. Here's what she wrote, "When I was in the hands of the persecutors, my father in his tender solicitude tried hard to pervert me from the faith. “My father”, I said, “You see this picture? Can we call it by any other name than what it is?” “No,” he said, “Nor can I,” I said, “call myself by any other name than that of Christian."
Right there, she's essentially saying, “Yes, I'm a mom. Yes, I have all of these things of earth that I want to do, but I cannot deny Christ even though there's all this pain involved,” even in her motherhood.
Laura: It's amazing because she could have gotten right out of jail and gone back to her family, gone back to her father, probably back to a decent life if she had just renounced Christ, but she wouldn't do it. In the jail—there's so much to this story—but basically, in the jail, they have a last supper before they all knew that they were going to have to go into the Coliseum, and the jailer actually becomes a Christian because of some of the stuff that they were singing and talking about, and then they end up going into the arena and of course, they loosed on them wild animals, boars, tigers, leopards and all these different things.
In the endfor Perpetua, she was not actually killed by the animals, and so a gladiator came over to kill her. According to eyewitness testimonials, she took the gladiator sword in her hand, and drove it through her throat. Is that not crazy? She knew that she was going to have to die for Christ and so she was like, “I will help this gladiator get through this.” Because I'm not sure there's—I can't remember if he was just too scared to do it or what, maybe he just noticed the radiance of the glory of God on her face, I don't know. It's an amazing story of faith and just this idea that she could get out if she would just renounce Christ.
Emily: It reminds me of, I don't have it exactly in front of me now, but when Jesus says, "Whoever loves mother, father, sister, brother, anybody more than me is not worthy to be with me." I think there's these real examples of people who count Christ and their faith in him and their eternity with him as more significant than these other things that of course they love and hold dearly, but he is worth more.
Laura: Another woman that often comes to mind for me is Elisabeth Elliot. We have, both Emily and I, been shaped and formed by her and her works. I encourage you to read pretty much anything she's written. Even if you don't totally agree with everything she says, she can be a little bit brash and harsh, which I actually really love, but she can be a little more firm on that side.
Learning about her life has been just so amazing. For her, her deepest fears were realized when her husband, her first husband Jim, was killed by the Indigenous people that they were trying to bring the gospel to. She actually went back. She had a little girl, Valerie, I think she was like, two or three, she went back to those same people to bring the gospel to the people who had murdered her husband.
You can read about this, she wrote a biography of her husband and then there's a new biography of her that is out. You can read these different books to learn more about her life, but just her steadfastness and her courage in the midst of absolutely terrifying things, even the idea of how she went back to the people, would they kill her? Not only had they killed her husband, but would they kill her? I think for a lot of us, we're so afraid if we're going to die or a lot of our fears are about preserving our life or preserving our children's life or our safety, and she just marched right back in there with her little daughter and was like, "Here we go. Let's trust the Lord."
Emily: Again, I think what's important to remember about these stories is they're not prescriptive in the sense of, we don't need to go out looking to put our lives at risk for Christ, and we'll talk more about that, but just to realize, these were such situations and circumstances that the Lord specifically brought into the lives of these moms, these women, and then he met them with grace to be faithful where they were at.
We can't be faithful in anybody else's life but our own and so it may be something much smaller that we're facing today, but I think watching women be faithful in much more somewhat dramatic circumstances than what we're facing today can really help give us courage for the—I wouldn't say smaller, because it feels big to us when it's happening—but just whatever God has put before us today.
Laura: I think a lot of times I can think, "Oh, that happened a long time ago. That was just hard a long time ago," as we're talking about the church historic, but actually, it was interesting because Emily and I were like, no, this stuff happens around the world still to this day. I did a tiny bit of research and a lot of these statistics can be found on opendoorsusa.org and we'll link it in the show notes, but just to give you some perspective, think about being a mom in some of these countries.
In Somalia, Christ-followers are killed by their families for converting from Islam. In Iran, believers cannot have a Bible. It's forbidden for them to share their faith with non-believers and it's illegal to produce Christian literature or hold church services in Farsi. In North Korea, Christians, if they're discovered, are deported to labor camps as political criminals where they’re worked like slaves and often tortured and most are never able to escape or they’re even killed right on the spot.
...I don't know. I'm 34 and I have never experienced persecution like this. We have a book about the gospel. We have a podcast. We have a website. All my beliefs are public to be shared, and it's things like this that really put things into perspective for me. To just own a Bible, to just speak the name of Jesus, to try to share the good news with someone, that that could get you put in jail or get you killed is almost unthinkable for me.
I almost can't wrap my mind around it, but for me, it's been something that I know that I can't for sure know, but it's been good to just even think through, if that were the circumstances of my faith, if that's what it is for me, would I respond the same way as many of these people who have gone before us? Would I follow Christ faithfully? I think for those of us that have a lot of religious freedoms, which you probably do if you are listening to this show, then it can also remind us just to be so grateful for those freedoms and know they aren't a guarantee.
Emily: Absolutely. And to not be complacent. I think that if we want to honor our brothers and sisters around the world that could get killed or arrested for having a Bible or meeting together with other believers, then let us rejoice and open our Bibles and meet together with other believers as we can, as the Lord allows. We need to be grateful for that opportunity and realize—we've gotten messages from moms who are missionaries around the world and have said, "I don't have Christian community around me and I am able to get your podcast. That's helping me process through these things in motherhood," because they do not have friends and other believers around them who can process those things in motherhood through the gospel.
If you have friends that you can have these conversations with, praise the Lord, because there are women who are following Christ and sharing the gospel who don't have those same things right now.
Laura: That's something to be so thankful for amidst our fears. I think one last thing I wanted to mention that I often struggle with, if you're struggling with this too, I just want to address it. I think I went through a long period of thinking, “Well, I should just pray for more suffering then. That'll make me more of a Christian, that'll make me more authentic. Just give me the hardest life ever, and then I'll really be following Christ. Then I'll really grow.”
I was really helped by some words from Susan Huntington, this is from Seasons Of The Heart, it's a devotional. She says, "Shall we pray for afflictions? By no means. We are weak and we are crushed before the moth. We should not pray for what we do not know that we could bear. We should habitually pray for conformity to God and quietly leave it to him to determine by what means he will affect this blessed end."
That was so helpful for me to stop praying for hard things so that I could somehow be transformed into Christ-likeness but instead to simply trust that God will do that in his own way. He can choose the means. I don't have to ask for the means or assume the means, but I can trust that this life that I have here today, it's the one that God's given to me.
As Emily said at the beginning of the show, we can't be faithful in another woman's life and I think that we can trust that God is transforming us into Christ-likeness, he's moving us towards sanctification without feeling like, hey, we need to speed that up somehow. That was helpful for me.
Emily: It reminds me of the story of Betty Scott Stam, which we've talked about before on this show, We'll leave a link in the show notes to some more information about that. Essentially, she pens a prayer to God long before she's martyred for her faith. From what we know, that prayer was not seeking affliction, but it was essentially, “Lord, whatever you would carry me through, would I be faithful.” I think that's the longing of our hearts.
Laura: The last one is the local church and I think it's interesting to be sitting here, speaking of it being illegal to go to church because, again, if you're in the United States, it's an enormous privilege that you have even during global pandemic. If you're watching it online or if you’re going anywhere, social distancing, whatever you're doing, the fact that that can be streamed or that you can be attending those types of services is something to praise God for.
I think it's so interesting because you know me, I love stats and I just looked up a couple of things about church attendance. This great privilege we have. Are we taking advantage of it? No. In the US only half of the millennials described themselves as Christians. 33% of millennials say they attend religious services regularly, and regularly, get this, it means once or twice a month, isn't that crazy? Then they say, the reason they don't go is, "Oh, I practice my faith in other ways,” or, “Oh, I haven't found a church that I like."
Emily: There's no doubt it can be hard to find a faithful church that's preaching the gospel, that you can align with doctrinally, but I think it's just good to note, and Laura and I have both experienced this, there is no perfect church. There is no church that's always going to make you feel warm fuzzies all the time. We don't go to church so that we can have some experience, consume church and then leave. We're part of a local body for a bajillion reasons. This is like a whole nother show, a whole nother mini-series we're getting into with the value and the importance of the local church, but it's where we come together with other believers to hear the word of God taught, to be sanctified, to pray with one another and to take the sacraments and all those different things are so, so important. Whether or not we feel it every single week, it's still an incredibly crucial aspect to the Christian life.
Laura: A couple of those things just to hit on them very briefly, the first thing it does is it reminds us of our mission. The local church is the way that God has designed for him to accomplish his mission in the world. We have a mission, we have a purpose. I think that's been really helpful for me is that every time I get off course, I can be reminded as I attend church each week, I go to different services and different things, I am brought back into the fold of what the mission and purpose of my life is and I'm not as distracted, I think.
Emily: I love that verse in Hebrews 10 verses 24 to 25. "Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near." What that's talking about is what we're experiencing right now. It feels like the world is falling apart. We hope Jesus comes back soon, but what are we supposed to be doing in the meantime? It's assembling together so we can remember our mission.
As I think about this, it's like people like to rally around stuff. I think what's important to remember is that church is meant for rallying around Jesus. We can have some different thoughts on different things. We've talked about this on other shows, we can mother a little bit differently. We can make different school choices. We can have slightly different political leanings and different solutions to different problems, but are we going to a church that rallies around Jesus Christ and his mission and the world? Can we be in a place where people remind us of that?
Laura: Some of the things the church does is that it offers spiritual accountability and it trains us to know truth from lies. The church provides a great community for us to get camaraderie and to get help. I feel like the church—perhaps some of you have not had this experience, and if you haven't, I am so, so sorry, because this should be your experience—you can go to your church and feel safe and to talk about your fears, to find comfort for your fears, to be told stories of the ways that Jesus is better than anything else.
Swapping practical tips, I know Emily touched on that. We can mom in different ways, but it's so helpful when people do things differently. Because you're like, "Oh actually I should do that. That's a really good idea. I'd never even thought about that.” I think too, it's primarily in the local church that Christians learn doctrine and they’re trained in righteousness, you correct errors.
It provides opportunities for growth that really aren’t available anywhere else. Things like Bible study or seeing how your church preaches the gospel each Sunday, I think it just reveals lies, and it establishes truth. There are so many good things that the church can do for your heart and for your soul that I feel like that stuff alone, encouraging you in your Christian walk is just, is so vital.
Emily: Absolutely. I think finally, living in the community of the local church gives us real-life pictures of what courage and faithfulness in the face of fear looks like. I hope that if you're in a local church, you can start right now to think of other moms and other, older women who you can say, “Hey there, they don't have a podcast. They're not an influencer on Instagram. They're not doing something that everybody can see and applaud but they are serving their families, serving their community, they are prayer warriors.”
I love a good prayer warrior.
Laura: Oh my my goodness. I'm so thankful for them.
Emily: Yes. You know that maybe they don't get out and do a lot in the community, but you're going to give them your prayer requests and they’re just going to go for it, everybody in the congregation.
Laura: They’re on the floor baby. They’re on their knees. [laughter]
Emily: They’re on their knees. They're praying for your kids, whatever that is. There are so many women who we can look to and say, “What does it look like to trust the Lord in the midst of whatever circumstances He's given us, in the midst of our fears?” We can look around at women who are being faithful.
Laura: I often think of my mother-in-law, as my father-in-law had cancer, and just watching her go through that and the courage that she displayed in that moment. No one's ever gonna have a memorial in her honor or it's not going to be flashed all over social media but she quietly and faithfully trusted God through that whole season of facing her greatest fear, which was losing her husband.
I have just been so thankful for her example in my own life as I think about fears that I face or that I conjure up even. It's women like that who are in our midst. As you get to know them, the way that they exude the love of Jesus and they show that steadfastness for Christ, I'm more inspired by that probably than any of the biographies that I read because seeing it in real life and then getting to talk with them is just such a huge gift. That should be able to be found in the local church.
If you're not in a church like that, we encourage you to either dig a little bit deeper and to see if perhaps there are other women like that or other people and to be brave, or sometimes there are times to even try out a different church and to be able to find a community like that, because I know that it’s possible.
Emily: Whatever it is that you're facing today in terms of your fears, your worries, your concerns, we would just encourage you, as we have learned, to look to the global church, read those biographies, look at Christians across history and how they followed the Lord faithfully, look at your local church and be encouraged.
Laura: If you guys want more on fear, head over to social media, @risenmotherhood on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Of course, you can always find our show notes. I know we've mentioned a lot of links on this show.
Head over to risemotherhood.com/podcast and there will be a link to this show with all of the links that we mentioned so you guys can start reading and checking things out. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next week.