Moms + Work 04: Real Help When You're Overwhelmed—An Interview with Jill Thomas Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Laura Wifler: Well, hey friends. Welcome back to another episode of Risen Motherhood. I'm Laura Wifler and I am super excited about today's show. We have a guest interview—actually a friend of Emily and myself in real life. Her name is Jill Thomas. Jill is a mental health therapist. She has been one for over twelve years and she is coming in today to talk about what it looks like to balance work and motherhood and the different ways that she has had it change and morph over the years as her family has grown.
We just want to start out by sharing with you guys that Jill is going to talk a little bit about how work affects our mental health because she's a mental health therapist. So we just thought, "Wow, this is going to be great. We definitely want to get some of those thoughts in there." But even though Jill is a licensed counselor, we just want to mention that this show is not meant to be prescriptive. It's not meant to be taken as legal or professional advice. If you are resonating with some of the things that Jill ends up talking about, we highly recommend you talking to your own doctor or a counselor that is in your area that can meet with you in real life. We do hope that you're just blessed by some of the things that she shared because she really does have a wealth of experience that she's going to bring to today's show.
To tell you a little bit more about Jill—as I mentioned, she's been a mental health therapist for more than twelve years. She is a registered play therapist for children struggling with an array of emotional and behavioral issues and trauma. She's also certified in treating perinatal mood and anxiety disorders in pregnant and postpartum moms. Jill is married to her college sweetheart and has four young children both biologically and through adoption.
Lastly, I just want to let you guys know that this is actually the very first of a series of interviews with a variety of moms that we are going to talk to. We're going to explore how they work and how the gospel informs the ways that they think about work and their motherhood and all the decisions and the viewpoints that they hold. If this one doesn't resonate with you, hang tight; there's probably going to be another one that we hope will meet you where you're at. I think, with that, let's get to the show.
Emily Jensen: So, Jill, tell us a little bit about your work history: how you got into the career field that you're in now, what your daily work life looks like. Of course, we want to hear about how many kids you have and what the family makeup looks like too.
Jill Thomas: Yes, absolutely. I am kind of a unique case. I knew what I wanted to do from the time I was in high school. My first psychology class, I was—"Yes. Yes, this is it." This is how God's wired me. He has experiences in my life that have prepared me for this. I was just very confident in God's calling of that. I think it's totally normal and okay to not be confident in God's calling, but that's how it worked for me.
Went to grad school, met my husband there, got married, and I started out working primarily with kids. I'm a registered play therapist. I've worked with a lot of kids with emotional/behavioral issues, history of trauma and abuse, and that's what I did pretty much full-time. Then, as we had kids, I started realizing the huge need for mental health services for women with perinatal mood disorders. I got certified in treating that, so I work with a lot of pregnant and postpartum moms who are struggling with postpartum depression or anxiety or OCD and those types of things.
We have four kids. They are seven, six, three, and one. We have done foster care, and we ended up adopting our three-year-old out of foster care. That's kind of the makeup of our family.
Emily: That's great. I want to get into the nitty-gritty of what your work-life situation looks like because I know moms will wonder, "How does that exactly work itself out?" I know you guys are homeschooling this year, and you're doing that as well, Monday through Friday. What does that look like for you?
Jill: I started out working full-time when I had my first child. Then with my second, it was more like three or four days a week, and then when we started foster care, it was only three days a week. Then we had our fourth surprise baby, and a pandemic hit, and I'm working now maybe ten hours a week. It's incrementally gone down just with what our family needs and what my capacity is, but it's been great.
Monday through Friday now mostly looks like: I'm home with the kids homeschooling. I've got two toddlers now, so homeschooling is difficult with them around. One of them goes to preschool a couple of mornings a week. We try to squeeze in a lot of school during that time, and then one afternoon/evening a week, I go and work and do therapy, and my husband is home with the kids, so we just trade off. Then another day of the week, I'm at the office all day, and some of my kids are with my mom, and some of them are with a friend who enjoys watching them. It's easier to divide and get those helpers when you're not sending all your kids to one place.
Emily: Speaking of logistics and working through who's going to do what in your household and how many hours you're going to work and what your kids and your family need right now—over the years, how have you and Kyle worked through those decisions? I know you both are very unified. You both care so much about discipling your children in the Lord, and I just love watching you guys work through those things with your family. What have been some practices that have helped you through that, maybe even if it's subconsciously? Some gospel truths that have undergirded that process?
Jill: Yes, absolutely. I wish I could say we've always done it super well, but it's been rocky at times, and we've had to be refined by the Lord in how we come together. I tend to lead with my heart, and he tends to lead with his head. We're a good balance for each other when we make space for both of those, but some of the questions that we ask are, "Is this something God's calling us to do specifically? Or is it something we just have the freedom to choose? Does it align with our values? Is it something that goes along with what we're really prioritizing and caring about right now? Does it utilize our gifts?"
I think of 1 Peter 4:10: "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others as faithful stewards of God's grace." That is something we take into consideration. We have very different giftings, but we know that God clearly calls us into obedience to use those giftings. Is this decision something that does that or takes away from us being able to use it in our home?
Sometimes I ask myself, "Am I the only person that can do this? Or are there other people with this gifting that can do it just as well or maybe even better? That my 'no' could be their 'yes'?" I don't have to say yes to all of it. Then my practical husband asks questions, like, "Do we have time for this? Is it income-producing or not? Do we have the capacity?" Our capacity is always changing.
Just recently, we let go of our foster care license after doing it for several years. That was a hard decision to make because we still feel called to do the work in foster care and to minister to kids and families in need, but we don't have the capacity right now to take in another placement. There are times where there's still that calling, but there's not the capacity, and we have to take that into consideration. I hope our capacity changes in the future, and then we can, but it's things like that that we need to be mindful and good stewards of too.
Emily: I think you're right that—I know my husband and I have noticed as we've gotten older, and we have more kids, and we have more things on our plate—it feels like the things we're saying no to are really good things, things that are important for life. There's no more filler thing in life that's like, "Well, that's an easy no." It's hard things, like deciding maybe we don't have the capacity for foster care anymore. I think sometimes it can be hard to grapple with that.
As you guys have noticed over the years that you have a lot going on, what are some of the red flags that you see when you have too much on your plate? You're maybe too overwhelmed. What kind of things indicate, "Hey, it's time to cut something out of our schedule or to scale back"? Then, have you ever had a season where you've noticed like, "Oh, I actually think we have more capacity now, or it's time to take on something else"? Just walk us through that a little bit.
Jill: Yes, that's a good question. Usually, some of the first signs that we need to take some things off our plate or scale back are the chronic overwhelm feelings. It's normal in motherhood to have moments where you're overwhelmed—when there's spills, injuries, and tantrums—but they alleviate pretty quickly. When there's this chronic overwhelm that bleeds into day after day after day—you're not getting your things done. You're not keeping your head above water. You're not taking joy in the things that you used to really enjoy. Things are starting to feel weightier and heavier. You're not resting. You're not sleeping. There's no pause in your day. For me, one of the big red flags was just making really careless mistakes.
We all make mistakes, but it was pretty profound some of the mistakes that I was making when I was just doing too much, and it was like, "You're juggling too many balls. One's going to drop eventually." That was a red flag for me that I need to prioritize my mental health and my sleep and maybe scale back a little bit. Because then you're getting into that more dangerous territory of having more depression or anxiety or irritability and angry outbursts start to creep in when you don't take care of it when you start to see those red flags at the beginning.
Emily: Then, if that's the red flags and the signs that, "Hey, we're doing too much, we need to take some things off of our plate," what have been some seasons where you've thought, "Hey, we actually are able to take on a little bit more," or "I could take on some more hours at work"? What does that look like?
Jill: I think it's good when we're mentally and emotionally in a healthy place, when our marriage is in a healthy place, when there aren't major crises in parenting or in our immediate family. When we have a motivation and a drive to say yes to that, that's not motivated by guilt or pressure, it's really pure and genuine. Seasons I've felt that have been when we actually have more capacity. That comes along with, I think, growing in the Lord and also just having more support. I think, when you have a support system, that capacity naturally grows. Having family and friends and a church community around has made it so we've been able to have the luxury to say yes to some things that normally we would've said no to.
Emily: I think that support system is really key. It's something, as moms even, in our culture, we don't think of very often because it's so glorified to do everything by yourself and independently and not need any help. But I know that's something we've experienced over the years—having both sets of parents living in town—is that has enabled us to do a lot, along with my husband having a really flexible job. I can be here doing recording, and he can take a kid out to a doctor's appointment or can come home early, or a grandparent can pick kids up from school. I think for moms that don't have that type of support system in place, that can be really hard if you have to shoulder all of that on your own, and that's an important factor.
I want to shift gears a little bit because I know you have special insight into moms and mental health, and you have worked with a lot of moms who are struggling with PPD and through anxiety and OCD, as you mentioned. As you are talking with them, how do you process through the topic of work, particularly in the postpartum season, and how it may play into their mental health?
Jill: I really first start by encouraging them to try and not be rigid or black and white in their thinking about that decision, which can happen a lot when you're struggling with mental health issues—that there's a right or wrong answer, good or bad, and I have to make the right choice. Just giving them that permission of that freedom in Christ that you could choose to not go back to work. That could be great for you and your family, or you could choose to go back to work after maternity leave, and that could be great for you and your family. God calls us to glorify him with the work that we do—whatever it is—laid before us. Just that weight lifted helps a mom, I think, in that decision-making process. There's no choice that's holier than another, and it's different for different families.
We also just go back to the drawing board of: what are your family's values? Are you discussing and praying with your husband about what are your family's values? In this season, what's most important to you, and how can you make a decision that aligns really well with that and your circumstances and your needs and your giftings? Taking all those into consideration.
Also, a little nugget that I like to add is just having the opportunity to make a choice on whether or not you're going to work or stay at home is a privilege in and of itself. If we can look through that perspective of gratitude in being able to make that decision instead of worry and guilt and pressure, I think that can bring a lot more joy and peace in the process of making that choice than it being a burden.
Emily: To build on that, when a mom is maybe already in a state where she's made decisions and she's working and she's doing motherhood and she's feeling really anxious and overwhelmed, what changes or healthy rhythms of rest do you typically recommend when she's already to that point?
Jill: I think I first have to remind her to give herself permission to rest, and that is not just something that's a good idea. It's a commandment from the Lord that we are to rest in him. We are to slow down. We are to pause. We are to reflect. We are to Sabbath. God knows that we're limited humans. What happens when we don't do that is things start to break down and fall apart.
Emily: It's amazing how God's design actually functions well when we live according to that.
Jill: Yes. Man, when mom falls apart, it's like a domino effect with the rest of the family. It's so important that we give ourselves permission to rest and be creative and find out, "What does that looks like for me?" It might not be the same as the next mom. I think self-care can sound like a dirty word in Christian culture sometimes. Self-care just means that I need to take care of the things in myself that God has called me to be a good steward of—my health, my sanity, my choices—so that I can take care of others. That kind of care is essential.
It shouldn't be something we let fall to the wayside. Just really focusing on sleep— that's the number one factor in mental illness onsetting and not being able to recover well: sleep. It's so hard for moms with little ones. It is not going to look the same as what it did pre-kids, but there need to be rhythms in place to allow the mom to get enough sleep because that's when our body and our brain do the recovery work. If we don't rest, we're not going to get better.
That's something I always work with them on: "Let's talk about a sleep plan." I can work with any woman with any desires on what that necessarily needs to look like. We can be creative. Sometimes it means joining a group like the Beyond the Baby Blues group I run every week. It's a therapy group for moms who are struggling. Sometimes that's just what they need to rest. They need adult conversation that's meaningful, that they can relate to, where nothing is expected of them. They can just go and be encouraged and supported by other women.
I use a little tool called the "Four Ds," which, if you haven't heard of it—it's just drawing out on a piece of paper—making four columns. The words at the top of the columns are Delegate, Drop, Delay, and Do, and you just start with Delegate. What needs to be done, but I don't need to do it? I can rest instead. That might look like having your kids do some chores instead of you doing it, or my husband got us a Roomba, so I'm delegating some of the housekeeping of cleaning the floors, sweeping, vacuuming to Rosie the Roomba, and that's okay. [Laughter]
Then the next column is Drop. What are the things that maybe I'm putting pressure on myself to do, but it's not really necessary? I can let that go. That would go there. What are the things that I need to do, but I can delay it? The laundry doesn't have to be folded right now. I can delay that, and then Do is all that's left. Hopefully, your list at that point is pretty small and a lot less overwhelming, leaving a lot more space for truly resting and caring for yourself.
Emily: That is so helpful. We need to figure out a way to make that into a printable for moms, but I think that sometimes those practical things really matter. Even for me, just being willing to take the twenty minutes or the two hours or the afternoon to take all the things out of my brain, put them on paper, and figure out how it's going to get done is so important to the process, even though it may feel like, in the moment, I don't have another minute to even to give, to even figure out how I'm going to get all of this stuff done. It's almost like organizing a closet where things have to get worse before they get better. You have to pull everything out, and it looks like you're never going to get to the end of it, but it does contribute to the household functioning well when that closet gets organized.
It's worth taking that time. I think that's a good reminder for all of us, as we are feeling overwhelmed, that it's worth taking the time to figure out how we're going to sleep a little bit better, how we are going to have community, how we're going to Sabbath, how we're going to be strategic about our to-do list and accept our limitations. It's worth investing that time so that we can serve the Lord and serve others. That's really good.
Another side to this is: moms coming in—do you ever work with them on saying, "Hey, we need to be more purposeful in your work," or "Maybe you do need to get a hobby or figure out how to structure your time a little bit differently"? How does that play out?
Jill: Yes. That definitely happens with moms that are like, "I don't think I'm made to be at home full-time," or "It just doesn't seem like it's tapping into certain giftings or skills or needs that I have." That's okay. It's not bad to say that or think that because God designed all of us to do purposeful work. Even in the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were doing that. So, we know it's not a part of the fall. It was a good thing.
We just have to be intentional about—what does purposeful work look like for you specifically? Sometimes we have to put on our gospel goggles when we're at home with the kids because it doesn't look purposeful. It looks very mundane and repetitive and exhausting, and it doesn't feel like what we're doing matters, when you've been changing a lot of diapers and sweeping Cheerios for the fourth time. Those gospel goggles are like seeing it through the filter of God's promises. He's asking me specifically to be here to do this for these specific kids.
That doesn't feel glamorous sometimes, but it's purposeful. So sometimes it's a perspective change, but other times, God is really calling a mom to minister to her kids but also minister to others outside of the home. The blessing that that is for her kids and for her—it's just having that courage and permission to say, "God has specifically gifted me or called me or given me this opportunity, and I can take that, and it happens to produce income." That's great too.
If you're not in a job, that might just be a hobby, like building a garden and seeing the fruit of your labor be pretty immediate. That's very satisfying. We don't see that in our kids. Sometimes those seeds don't grow for years. They can be very discouraging. I have a friend who stays home with her kids. She doesn't work outside the home, but she does productive, meaningful work for others. She does it maybe when the kids go to bed or at nap time. It gives her that ability to use skills that have nothing to do with motherhood. It just has to do with her womanhood and how God designed her to help and serve others. That's her way of doing it and she's glorifying God with it and it's great.
Emily: I like what you're saying—just being creative. If somebody is home full-time—I know I've experienced this in seasons of just being a stay-at-home mom and not really having other things outside of that that I had to do. Creating scaffolding in my day and viewing my day as, "This is my job. This is what God has given me to do," instead of being like, "Well, I have all the time in the world to get the laundry done, and we'll just have fun today," or "I don't know; we'll just go to the library." Trying to create time blocking and scheduling and finding ways to minister to other people—to bring meals, to do some writing during nap time, whatever that looked like—really helped me structure my day and feel like we had a plan and a system versus it just being a free-for-all. I just felt awful because I could never tell what was getting done or when things were getting done. I think that's a good practical tip.
Going back to you and Kyle and the way you guys structure your family and homeschool and work life and kids, what are some things you are doing to intentionally disciple them and even love your husband in the midst of a really busy life?
Jill: It's been trial and error trying to figure that out. There's a lot to juggle, but our goal was never to homeschool the kids. That wasn't a plan. We fell into it with COVID, and I had a baby, so there were four kids at home. Nobody was going to school like we planned them to, and there was just a lot of instability, and I was struggling with some postpartum depression for the first time ever personally, after having my fourth.
I just knew, as a family, we needed to hunker down, have some structure, have some predictability, but that could also be flexible. Whereas, with the public school, I had to kind of do whatever they were going to do, and you wouldn't even know the next week. We fell into homeschooling. It was just what we needed in that time. Does it align with our values? Yes, there are values that we have where homeschool really fosters that. There are values that we have that public school really fosters well.
We had to just sit down and talk about, "Right now, in this season, which one of those values do we need to focus on and grow, and how can homeschool help us do that?" Some people are like, "How do you work as a therapist and homeschool your kids?" With the flexibility of it and with how little my kids are, with academics not being so rigorous, we can get it done in an hour or two a day. I don't have to do school on the days that I work because we make up for it in other times.
The ways I disciple them through that extra time God's given me in being able to homeschool them has been in being intentional about exposing them to the Word of God. If that's reading the Jesus Storybook Bible or New City Catechism—you have so many great resources, too, on your website. They can start to have that be something that they hear and they learn. Then I have the rest of the day with them to point out opportunities and really apply what we're learning and bring those things back up. Some practical things I do are I pray a lot out loud and I pray with my kids a lot throughout the day. It's not this elaborate, fancy prayer. It is just like, "Lord, please give me patience right now with everyone struggling," or "Let's pray together about your feelings because your brother really hurt your feelings, and I know the Lord cares about that." Or we're driving down the street, and we see a homeless person downtown, and we think about, "What could his life be like, and how can we be praying for him?"
Just that, on the go—we have a busy life, but we can always be praying and in communication with God. My favorite thing I do with my kids that is a discipleship opportunity is bedtime. I for years have really relished in bedtime being that time where the crazy starts to slow down, the day gets quiet. I don't know if your kids are this way, but my kids want that one-on-one time with me because sometimes they don't get very much one-on-one time with mom at all, so they want me to lay by them. They want to talk about their day, and it's not always super profound.
Sometimes they want to talk about their Lego creation from that day, but I will tell you, the Lord has been gracious in some really intentional heart changes and attitude changes and the gospel sinking in and questions that they ask in those sweet talks at bedtime. They've asked really good questions about what we're learning from Scripture they're memorizing or things that we talked about from that day, and then they're applying it to what happened with their neighbor friend or what someone said to them that day. So those are really times where I get to shape their hearts and imprint their beliefs a little bit because it's hard otherwise. I don't get a lot of that one-on-one time with them that I would really love, but bedtime—if they're not crazy goofy and stalling majorly, Kyle and I just tag team. One of them gets a couple of kids ready while I'm snuggling and talking with the other ones, and then we flip-flop. So, it's just been some really precious time, and then we just budget for babysitters, so Kyle and I can have date nights. We don't pay for Netflix. We don't pay for cable. We don't pay for a lot of things that a lot of people pay for because that money goes to babysitters.
Emily: You guys are so good about getting away as a couple and I love watching how well you guys love each other. They're just like a cute, young, in-love couple. [Laughter]
Jill: Our kids see us not always get along, and we try to be really intentional about not fighting inappropriately in front of our kids or having inappropriate conversations in front of them, but we also let them see us work through conflict because that is such a part of the gospel. We live in a messy world with broken people, and we deal with people's sin, so it's good for them to see us practicing what we preach to them to do with each other as siblings; that mom and dad have to—we have to talk that out too and we have to acknowledge what we did and we forgive each other, and yes, I don't always love that, but we try to do that too.
Emily: Well, what I love and what I'm hearing you say is, in the midst of doing your work in counseling and doing all the things I know you do to take care of your home life and homeschooling, that you're finding those moments that are already happening—the sibling conflict, the interaction with the neighbor, the meal times, the car ride, the bedtimes, the things that are going to happen no matter what—and you're looking at those as opportunities to disciple your kids, to teach them about the Lord, to pray with them.
Sometimes I think, as moms, we feel pressure to come up with something new or to add something to our schedule. I've got to find a good block of time that we're going to work on Scripture memory. We're going to read the Bible. And that may be good and that may be important, but it's also okay to take the car ride that you're already doing and just utilize that in a slightly different way. Or you're praying in your head— pray it out loud and bring kids along with you in that. I just love the way you guys are modeling that, and I think that's possible for any of us in any situation that we're in, and God is really gracious in that. Well, let's just end on one quick word of encouragement you would give to moms who are processing through work and motherhood.
Jill: Yes. I think whether I'm at my job working with clients or I'm at home with the kids, I see that having big responsibilities like that comes with risk. Sometimes I feel like Moses when God called him from the burning bush to go free the captive Israelites: I don't think I'm the person for this job. I don't think I'm adequate for this. There's a lot of risks there. I could really mess some things up, and it's easy to sometimes feel that way in counseling people who are hurting or in your kids, where there's so much at stake with them, but what God has taught me is that I am inadequate without him, but with him, I'm not. It's like, with him, his grace is sufficient for me, and his power is made perfect in all of my many weaknesses.
In counseling, I've been able to see him use me as a vessel to heal hearts and change lives and mend relationships, and it's amazing to see what God does if you just allow him to use you. That's just taught me about his goodness and his faithfulness. And at home—sometimes it's harder to see that because I think my family—they see so much more of my sin. I struggle with the challenges of motherhood. I don't always feel equipped but being at home with my kids has made me acutely aware of my dependence on Jesus, that I need him more than anything, and it holds me accountable to come back to him and see he is faithful. Whether this feels like a blessing or a burden right now in this moment, I can trust him. His plans are better than my preferences. His promises are far more trustworthy than my feelings, and God has proven that over and over again, that he is faithful, and I can trust him in the job he puts before me, whether that's at work or at home.
